Say hypothetically...

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Mecron
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Say hypothetically...

Post by Mecron » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:16 pm

...that there were thoughts about a SotS HD edition...hypothetically.

What does that hypothetical idea mean to you all...hypothetically?

Does it bring to mind the EXACT same game with modern graphics?

A couple new features for more gameplay? A couple classic feature pet peeves you would like changed?

Just curious on your brief, concise and above all, hypothetical, thoughts.

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Torezu » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:05 pm

Very hypothetically, of course:

- A few new features, such as an expanded/revised tech tree, would add to resale value and interest. But I don't know how the publisher relationship would work with that. I also know how difficult new items would be to balance, so we're not talking about major stuff like a new energy tier.
- A useful addition might be an integrated or separate graphical map creator/editor, possibly to include scenario creator features.
- Classic features I would like to see tweaked for such a hypothetical venture: trade (to make less micro-intensive) and net code for multi-player battles (to make less jumpy/hitchy if possible). Both of those made multi-player games a little bit rougher.

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Mecron
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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Mecron » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:31 pm

What jump/hitch was there in prime MP?

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Torezu » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:02 pm

There's a strong possibility it was related to slow internet on one end or the other, or just mismatched speeds, in which case it's not so easily fixed. But in the worst cases (large battles, many missiles moving around), a 4-minute battle would take 20 because it would run for 1 second and pause, dead-stop, for 3 or 4. Of course, I only ever played MP with one person in particular, so I don't have a large data set to work from here.

If it's a problem unique to me, that wouldn't surprise me.

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by BlueTemplar » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:02 pm

This kind of lag?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPNMAUh0y0s

Superior graphics would be nice, but...

IMHO the most important thing if you want not only to attract, but to *keep* new players, is better controls :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MamaL6o_OpM&t=10m25s

I suppose that SotS1 was made with Homeworld 1 and Homeworld : Cataclysm players in mind?
So middle-click focusing objects was natural for these players...

But nowadays players won't have these kinds of habits :
http://steamcommunity.com/app/42990/dis ... 2913003631

GetDaved is supposedly an interface designer, but was unwilling to explain to me why SotS1 interface is "absolutely terrible" (see comments to the video) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQVHrRzfGRY
You might have a better chance of reaching to him... if you think that's worth your time of course!

So, probably, new players would appreciate consistent interface commands over combat, strategic map and research screen.
And especially allowing panning during combat, and probably strategic map (but which plane?).

Check out what was done in Homeworld : Reloaded in terms of UI and controls? There should still be a lot of overlap with people potentially interested in SotS1:HD!

P.S.: Bonus points for "see from cockpit" mode for combat!
(And I'm sure that people would *love* being able to control a ship that way. Makes me realize I *still* haven't checked out Void Destroyer! http://www.voiddestroyer.com/ )

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Nspace » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:03 pm

Mecron wrote:...that there were thoughts about a SotS HD edition...hypothetically.

What does that hypothetical idea mean to you all...hypothetically?


Hypothetically? For me, a SotS HD edition would be like a graphical version of ANY: mostly about graphical updates all around and then maybe a new feature or two or some new techs/ship sections/maps/scenarios.

I can only think of one feature pet peeve I'd like "changed": the ability to precisely set the number (or percentage) of all Civilian populations on a planet and then lock that number/percentage on a planet by planet or empire wide basis.

Now, if we were hypothetically talking about a SotS Redux/Reloded I'm sure I could work up some massively unreasonable wishlist. ;)
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SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Torezu » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:18 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:This kind of lag?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPNMAUh0y0s

Exactly that kind, yes.

And yeah, some "intuitive" interface updates would be really nice, particularly for combat and, especially if the tech tree is expanded, the research screen. I never really had an issue dealing with the controls once I grew accustomed to them, but there was a learning curve.

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Mecron » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:46 pm

So you mean you want us to wave a wand to make all your computers the same? Cause that's what you are looking at there... A fast computer being burdened by a slower one. We can use non-lockstep but then one player will have to be a host and broadcast to everyone and that can be a whole different world of lag.

Also, seriously, if you lugnuts have nothing more concrete to offer about interface than the "terrible" guy, its not really very useful. I know actual constructive examples are not as easy as using hip words like "intuitive" but try harder...I have faith in you 8) Follow Nspace's lead to the land of the concrete!!!

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:59 pm

It's hard to be more concrete than "add camera panning to combat (and strategic map)". Well, actually there is, specifying that the panning would be done using arrow keys... which is just one of the conventions (could be ASDW!). So even if there's no such thing as an "intuitive" interface, making one that follows the conventions that your customers expect (Homeworld : Remastered ?) is a good idea if you don't want to lose most of them on their first try (as can be seen from the negative user reviews and YouTube videos).

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Mecron » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:40 pm

Temp, no offence, but I am actually interested in the thought of people like you who have played the game.

Despite the near cosmic wisdom of 5 second impression on your face in a tube... if YOU want to step up and say YOU would like to try panning despite all the alpha level experiments showing how badly people got lost, that would be relevant. You saying I would really like to pan the camera despite my hours of play without it, is a helpful opinion. Do you kind of see what I am getting at?

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by fiendishrabbit » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:22 pm

1. I would like some new map options

a) A "No Von Neumann" option. Von Neumans weren't the most terrifying space menaces, but they sure were the most annoying and the ones would generally impact a game the most considering that once they came around they never went away until you annihilated their world (hard to find, tough to crack).
Most other menaces were kind of fun to encounter, but it would be nice to once in a while have a Neumann-free universe.

b) A Post-Apocalypse map version. Consider it the 4x strategy version of The Pit where your colony has dropped smack down in the middle of a Suul'ka playground. Deathtrap worlds, worlds with the remains of ancient civilizations hidden beneath the sands, planetary experiments gone wild, solar systems with massive powerarrays etc. Opportunities, and insane danger.
I want Xenoarcheology to be a "thing".

2. Better rotation controls, improving your ability to use formations to cover PD weakspots.
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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:37 pm

Mecron wrote:...that there were thoughts about a SotS HD edition...hypothetically.

What does that hypothetical idea mean to you all...hypothetically?

Does it bring to mind the EXACT same game with modern graphics?

A couple new features for more gameplay? A couple classic feature pet peeves you would like changed?

Just curious on your brief, concise and above all, hypothetical, thoughts.



Oh god am I torn on this one.

On one hand.... "SOTS Prime with HD graphic" is in itself a very tempting proposition because that sounds like it would be the easiest way to pull it off and... really, I'm -always- willing to see more Sword of the Stars and this feels like it would be the fastest way of doing it?

On the other hand, when it came to mechanics I always had a very hard time time getting into SOTS:Prime versus SOTS2.... ironically considering how "rough around the edge" the later was because of everything we already long know about.
I guess simply said... I did love a lot the way SOTS2 handled system management, space stations.... it brought that logistic concerns of deploying naval base around to actually progress through a map that I had never seen in any other games before. And to a degree I felt(admitedly, this may be heavily biased by perception and time since I last played) it had really streamlined and perfected some of the mechanics introduced in SOTS:Prime expansions or was well on the way to.

So when it came to mechanics suggestions, it's hard for me because there's this big temptation to go "Introduces back some of the stuff I enjoyed in SOTS2" because I understand just what crazy levels of development work this can represents that might make THAT nigh impossible.

More fundamentaly though, when it came to SOTS:Prime vs SOTS2 I have a hard time making an opinion because Prime oft made me feel like building and moving fleets around was almost a matter of chucking ships all across the galaxy as far as their fuel allowed them to go, whereas the supplies limits of SOTS2 added a layer of structure(and realism, almost, with the dependancy on naval bases) that I myself loved a lot even though a lot of other people disliked that sort of features.

Plus there was stuff like when the Loas were added, which I loved, and the hints of potentially seeing more playable races that were hinted at before. And even if it's unlikely and dependent on it's own success... I think I would love a SOTS:Prime HD just for the -possibility- of opening that door again later since I absolutely adored the lore written for all the playable races throughout the course of SOTS:Prime and SOTS2.


This said, even if SOTS2 was something I enjoyed a lot despite all of it's history there were still times I almost wished there was something like a gameplay option to set a game up back into the SOTS1 era, except with SOTS2 graphics so there's certainly something there that a SOTS:Prime HD would appeal in me even if it was basically "Just SOTS:Prime with a fresh coat of paint and polished UI & Mechanics".

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:14 pm

Mecron wrote:Temp, no offence, but I am actually interested in the thought of people like you who have played the game.

Despite the near cosmic wisdom of 5 second impression on your face in a tube... if YOU want to step up and say YOU would like to try panning despite all the alpha level experiments showing how badly people got lost, that would be relevant. You saying I would really like to pan the camera despite my hours of play without it, is a helpful opinion. Do you kind of see what I am getting at?

It's just a complaint I see time and time and time again from new players. I initially had trouble believing it was a problem (since I'm so used to the SotS1 interface by now, I have a hard time seeing what the issues might be for other people), until I realized these people probably haven't played HW1&C, so it isn't "intuitive" for them.

I wouldn't disregard YouTube videos outright, in aggregate they're probably the closest thing to that in-house alpha without having to actually organize one, in the sense that it actually shows you how people play the game (and where they fail), don't you think?

But if you say that the alternative is worse in that players would get "lost" while panning, then this is basically a lose-lose situation, with new players never understanding why they don't have the option of panning when they're used to it in other games.
Wouldn't there be a way to solve this "lost" issue?
I'm shooting in the dark here, but if you were to add an UI button for next ship (yours defaulting to allied if none of yours are present, defaulting to enemy if none of allied present) in the combat view (and maybe homeworld in the strategic view), and if that button would start blinking if the game were to detect that no ships (/stars) are in view, wouldn't that solve this "lost" problem?

Don't worry, I have plenty of suggestions that are *my* pet peeves with SotS1, it's just that I felt I had to forward this information first, seeing how often I see it appear when people are being negative about the game!

P.S.: Since there are plenty of things that could be still improved in SotS1, even without starting with new content, shouldn't we use the whole SotS1 Suggestions forum for that? I fear this thread otherwise might quickly become unmanageable otherwise, with multiple parallel discussions going on... (like the "The Pit 2" thread?)

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by Mecron » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:15 pm

Rabbit...yeah a pick and choose menaces option...a lot of people have asked for that over the years and it would mean isolating the menaces instead of incorporating them into an overall balance but maybe its time for that. Lets have more opinions on this one. As for "Post apocalyptic mode"...nuff said :twisted:

"Better rotation controls" Ok I hear ya. But what does that actually mean. Within the confines of a GUI. Same with formation. Interesting to say but how do you see those gaps being conveyed easily in a world of many turrets and different weapons?


Lud...Don't get me started. There were many mechanics in SotS2 that I wanted folks to enjoy but instead emerged as mangled victims of the budget wars over the course of the project. And so any of those aspects would be fighting an uphill battle for acceptance because as Blue points out by accident, the knee jerk crowd will not give them the time of day I suspect and instead just label them failed ideas.

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Re: Say hypothetically...

Post by fiendishrabbit » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:29 pm

Mecron wrote: "Better rotation controls" Ok I hear ya. But what does that actually mean. Within the confines of a GUI. Same with formation. Interesting to say but how do you see those gaps being conveyed easily in a world of many turrets and different weapons?


Sorry. I mean Roll controls. As it is you had the "roll right, roll left" which meant that with some species a siege was a matter of "spin half your fleet every X seconds".
I'm thinking something like a Clock-like control (12 is up, which is the default. then 6 is upside down etc.) where you simply click on the outer edge of the circle and the ship rotates to (and stays) at that angle.
Possibly an "8 position" system where you connect each angle to the Num-pad, which would mean that you could lightning fast alter the roll of your ships.
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