Warhead Weapon Technologies

Research and Development in the SotS universe.
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martinl
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Post by martinl » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:03 pm

Slasher wrote:But without the protons and electrons to generate the electrical fields that pull the mass together, wouldn't neutronium also essentialy be like a liquid, without any kind of structure, as its just a dense mass of neutrons with nothing to hold it together...


Neutronium (assuming we mean "degenerate neutron matter") rounds are not pure neutronium - if they were, one round would mass more than the entire ship.

Not kidding.

One cubic inch is roughly one billion metric tons.

I assume that there's a small amount of neutronium, and the rest is some sort of containment system to keep it from asploding, as others have mentioned.

Also, with respect to Mecron, other than gravitational binding, the tensile properties of degenerate neutron matter are not well understood. "Incredibly dense fluid" is the most common model I've seen.

Of course, in SOTS, neutronium may not be degenerate neutron matter.
Last edited by martinl on Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coyote27
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Post by Coyote27 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:10 pm

martinl wrote:
Of course, in SOTS, neutronium may not be degenerate neutron matter.


In the same sense that "lasers" are not lasers at all, except for the heavy combat laser.
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HiigaranPilot
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by HiigaranPilot » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:18 am

Neutronium is extremely hard to synthesize atm- as in, it can't even be proven to exist. It has been postulated, yes, and single/double neutron pairs have been found, but as I understand it we're referring to a whole new form of that. One that would not only be solid, but stable.
As such, it's not unreasonable to assume it's got a small amount of neutronium, probably just enough to cover the tip of the round (assuming the bullets aren't actually spherical, but shaped more like the AP rounds) to assist in penetration, while the rest of the round is the standard shot. Further, this thing probably has a really high number of gluons keeping it stable, allowing it to do more damage before it all rubs off.
...just my $.02

Astatine
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by Astatine » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:32 am

HiigaranPilot wrote:Neutronium is extremely hard to synthesize atm- as in, it can't even be proven to exist. It has been postulated, yes, and single/double neutron pairs have been found, but as I understand it we're referring to a whole new form of that. One that would not only be solid, but stable.
As such, it's not unreasonable to assume it's got a small amount of neutronium, probably just enough to cover the tip of the round (assuming the bullets aren't actually spherical, but shaped more like the AP rounds) to assist in penetration, while the rest of the round is the standard shot. Further, this thing probably has a really high number of gluons keeping it stable, allowing it to do more damage before it all rubs off.
...just my $.02


The astrophysical evidence that the stars we call neutron stars are composed solely of densely packed neutrons ("neutronium") is reasonably convincing.

You do make an excellent point that since only gravity holds the neutrons together, small quantities with low masses would not be stable and the sci-fi uses for "neutronium" imply the term might have migrated to name some other material entirely; or to represent some fictional composite: a sandwich holding a neutron filling.
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HiigaranPilot
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by HiigaranPilot » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:38 am

Thank you, Thank you...*bows*
while you are correct that there is evidence to suggest it, my point was that we cannot _prove_ it exists, nor know its properties firsthand. What might degenerate neutron matter (yes, I enjoy particle physics) be like under STP? What would heavy-neutron/gluon matter be like at STP?

Astatine
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by Astatine » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:53 am

HiigaranPilot wrote:Thank you, Thank you...*bows*
while you are correct that there is evidence to suggest it, my point was that we cannot _prove_ it exists, nor know its properties firsthand. What might degenerate neutron matter (yes, I enjoy particle physics) be like under STP? What would heavy-neutron/gluon matter be like at STP?


I was once on track for a career in materials science, before getting into computers as an undergraduate. Things certainly get rather philosophical when you're considering a material no-one's yet laid eyes on[1]. In the case of neutronium though, I think the consensus is that the stuff simply won't have a stable existance at STP - either you have enough of it that its own gravity raises the pressure or beta-decay loses you neutrons and raises the temperature to boot.

However, there may be some interesting special cases, especially if we're talking about throwing the stuff around as a weapon and can introduce fictional technologies to cover any difficulties. I think there's enough wiggle room to justify treating it like a heavy radioactive metal at STP for purposes of fiction. That makes the suggestions of shaped "penetrator" tips to missiles quite plausible in the fictional context.

[1] or not more than a few particles of it at a time - not enough to demonstrate the material's properties clearly
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HiigaranPilot
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by HiigaranPilot » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:30 am

Wait, so is that suggestion canon now?
If so, SWEET!!! I made a (somewhat) valuable contribution to the game's story! =DDDDDDDDDDD

Maybe one of those techs would be a load of gluons to keep the neutrons...well...'glued' together and hence stable at STP; it can't handle major impacts with anything (not as in dropped-- as in shot from a cannon and actually smashing into something hard) without the gluon bonds shattering (within a molecule), which allows it great penetration and neutron radiation values without actually requiring all kinds of fancy techs. just one.

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Mysterius
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by Mysterius » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:12 am

HiigaranPilot wrote:Wait, so is that suggestion canon now?
If so, SWEET!!! I made a (somewhat) valuable contribution to the game's story! =DDDDDDDDDDD


Hmm? I wasn't aware that Erinys had made a comment. :wink:

I don't think anyone knows what the properties of neutronium are in-game, other than that it makes ballistics more damaging.

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by SpardaSon21 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:21 am

Well, we can assume its a really, really, really, really dense material. Also a very hard one too.

Astatine
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by Astatine » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:49 pm

SpardaSon21 wrote:Well, we can assume its a really, really, really, really dense material. Also a very hard one too.


Dense, definitely, because it is used to add force to the ballistic weapons. It's not so obvious it would be hard. It isn't used as armour in the game although it is mentioned as part of the Adamantite Alloys.

In fact the material is probably very soft, due to the lack of binding forces. (Gravity is not generally counted as a binding force when considering material strength... neutron stars are a very special case, after all).

Any significant quantity of neutron star material would be very hard to scratch... but mainly because your scratching-tool would end up plated to the surface and the tip would have been destroyed by the gravity gradient before actually making contact. Of course, SotS neutronium might be some other material or composite entirely, with any convenient properties.
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SpardaSon21
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by SpardaSon21 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:11 pm

Harder projectiles tend to deform less when hitting things, allowing for greater damage against armor plating and the like. Also hard substances are great for armoring your ship in. I'm fairly certain none of us would want to wear a lead flak jacket. However a dragonscale flak jacket, well that's a different story.

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Slasher
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by Slasher » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:30 pm

Considering the speeds of projectiles in SotS, I don't think the "hardness" of the projectile matters much. Once a projectile is going fast enough to carry multiple ricks of kinetic energy, its not going to stay in one peice on impact anyway, neither will it need to do so to kill its target...
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GammaPaladin
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by GammaPaladin » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:23 pm

Also, if a projectile is too hard it will deflect/shatter, which means that some of it's kinetic energy is not passed on to the target, whereas a softer projectile will deform against the target, which means that more of its total energy is transfered, albeit not in as rapid a manner...

So if knocking your target around is a priority, softer projectiles are better...

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by SpardaSon21 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:58 pm

Yes, although the fact that Neutronium is used for armor suggests it is a hard material.

Also, you would not want to make AP rounds out of a soft material. Kind of defeats the purpose.

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GammaPaladin
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Re: Warhead Weapon Technologies

Post by GammaPaladin » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:32 am

That depends. Often soft materials are used for weight, and encased in a harder material to create the final projectile when you're going for armor penetration. The densest, heaviest materials are generally soft, but you want your projectile to be heavy in order to have the greatest possible kinetic energy, hence the compromise of the jacketed round.

Adamantite Alloys are some sort of insanely advanced composite, we know neutronium is part of that, but not to what extent, or how it's combined with other materials, etc, so assuming that neutronium is hard based on that is a bit of an assumption.

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