Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Galactic diplomacy with extreme prejudice.
Post Reply
Azure
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:48 pm

Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by Azure » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:04 pm

So, judging by the wiki, the laser point defense has a deflection rate of -1.8. Hence, it will never bounce normally. Reflective is +1 and improved reflective is +1.5. Thus my understanding is that reflective is not going to be very useful - but what about improved reflective coating? Will it cause laser PD to bounce off drones?

I attempted to test the theory, but it was very hard to tell if the laser PD was actually bouncing or not. If it does bounce - now much? It would be nice to know if improved reflective increases durability against laser PD by 5% or 50%...since it is expensive tech to research.

Thanks for any information!

User avatar
fiendishrabbit
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:37 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by fiendishrabbit » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:28 pm

My text file says that Point defense lasers have a deflection rate of -1.5, which is just slightly better than the -1.3 of UV lasers.
Given that UV lasers seem to bounce about 50% of the time against improved reflective coating I suppose it's something like 30-40% of the time.
Hard to tell though given that reflections depend on angles and stuff..
You can't trust the Liir. Never trust someone that smiles all the time.

User avatar
AlanF5
Posts: 1492
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:14 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by AlanF5 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:54 pm

I have neither testing nor word of god to confirm this, but...

My guess is that Base_Reflection is a number from 0.0 to 1.0 based entirely on the angle which the shot strikes the surface. 0.0 for a perfect 90 degrees from the surface, approaching 1.0 as the shot comes closer to parallel with the surface. (Note that this approach may or may not be linear; I suspect a vector dot-product of the surface normal and the projectile, which is more like a non-linear sine-wave, IIRC.)

Once Base_Reflection is calculated, the reflectivity of the surface is added and the penetration of the shot is subtracted. If the result is > 1, reflection is achieved.
Download my zombie outbreak mini-sim: unfortunately, it's not Fort Zombie.

Winner of the "Guess what the zerker discs are an homage to?" race. (The Mandarin's ten rings)

Azure
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by Azure » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:11 pm

Yes, based on the numbers - improved reflective should have some benefit...however, has anyone actually tested this? Has anyone put improved reflective on morrigi drones? Part of the issue is that I have no idea what the base reflection angle is going to be...is it a uniform distribution of shots - or do the battles result in a more normal form distribution. If uniform, then easy to tell from the numbers how effective a certain armor would be against various weapons. However, I am guessing the base reflection in practice will not be uniform - probably could estimate a more normal form distribution - but the question would be what the mean is. (Note: I only have slept 4 hours the last two nights, so apologies if I am not making sense.)

khamul
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:01 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by khamul » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:48 pm

Improved reflective makes a massive difference to drone survival against PD lasers. They will still die to it, eventually, but very very slowly.

I've killed Hiver DNs with imp. reflective pulse phaser drones. Hiver DNs have a LOT of PD mounts. This was before ANY, so not advanced drones, either.

Small scale fusion drives and ionic thrusters are a big help as well.
I might not know what I might know,
But you don't know what you don't know.

User avatar
Mecron
Kerberos
Posts: 38644
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:26 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by Mecron » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:58 am

azure yes...pay attention to the man talking about shot angle...he is wise. You want to know how effective a reflec armor will be, take a look at the shape of the ship you are putting it on.

User avatar
The_Pastmaster
Posts: 1872
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by The_Pastmaster » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:18 pm

So... Reflective Coating is better if the ship is round than if it's squared?
I realize that pulsars are not part of the Canadian military arsenal, but I find that if you shampoo an angry beaver aggressively with "oily hair" shampoo to dry out it's fur and rub it vigorously against a balloon before flinging it at the enemy with a trebuchet, you get a similar effect.

Eleahen wrote:You are a genius!

Someone said it :twisted:

User avatar
fiendishrabbit
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:37 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by fiendishrabbit » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:47 pm

The_Pastmaster wrote:So... Reflective Coating is better if the ship is round than if it's squared?


Sort of. Depends on how its square. if it's square-ish like a Hiver it tends to have poor deflection since the surfaces are perpendicular to the plane (and as such shots are likely to hit it straight on.
Now if we angled it a bit so that it looked more like the Von Neuman probe it's suddenly quite well suited to deflecting shots (unless the opposing ship leaves the 2D plane like Liir ships tend to do).

Roundish ships have a small surface with low-deflection, but it has such surfaces in all directions.

In short.
Hiver ships = bad
Tarka ships = good

In terms of deflection that is.
You can't trust the Liir. Never trust someone that smiles all the time.

User avatar
The_Pastmaster
Posts: 1872
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by The_Pastmaster » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:08 pm

So I should just say to hell with it and leave my Hiver ships without RC?
I realize that pulsars are not part of the Canadian military arsenal, but I find that if you shampoo an angry beaver aggressively with "oily hair" shampoo to dry out it's fur and rub it vigorously against a balloon before flinging it at the enemy with a trebuchet, you get a similar effect.

Eleahen wrote:You are a genius!

Someone said it :twisted:

User avatar
fiendishrabbit
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:37 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by fiendishrabbit » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:18 pm

The_Pastmaster wrote:So I should just say to hell with it and leave my Hiver ships without RC?


*le sigh*

That entirely depends on the situation.
I generally do not fit reflective coating on my DE/CRs/DNs as it's only effective against small mount weapons (lasers&beamers. Not Heavy Combat lasers or Particlebeams or energy cannons).
However, if someone is using these weapons. Or for example on drones where small lasers is the primary threat (except for Emitters, PD gauss, PD missiles and various phasers. Not quite as common).
Then only YOU can judge if its worth it or not.
You can't trust the Liir. Never trust someone that smiles all the time.

User avatar
The_Pastmaster
Posts: 1872
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by The_Pastmaster » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:24 pm

Thought as much. Thanks for the clear up :thumbsup:
I realize that pulsars are not part of the Canadian military arsenal, but I find that if you shampoo an angry beaver aggressively with "oily hair" shampoo to dry out it's fur and rub it vigorously against a balloon before flinging it at the enemy with a trebuchet, you get a similar effect.

Eleahen wrote:You are a genius!

Someone said it :twisted:

Magnum
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:08 am

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by Magnum » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:39 pm

fiendishrabbit wrote:I generally do not fit reflective coating on my DE/CRs/DNs as it's only effective against small mount weapons (lasers&beamers. Not Heavy Combat lasers or Particlebeams or energy cannons).


I know this is about drones but as far as bigger ships go I'm pretty certain in various threads its been stated that reflective coating does in fact cut down on HCL damage, not reflecting it just lessening the overall damage taken.

User avatar
fiendishrabbit
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:37 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by fiendishrabbit » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:45 pm

Magnum wrote:I know this is about drones but as far as bigger ships go I'm pretty certain in various threads its been stated that reflective coating does in fact cut down on HCL damage, not reflecting it just lessening the overall damage taken.


Never seemed that way to me (and it should be hella-noticable given that ImpRef has a -50% vs "beamer").
But also, according to data, the only weapons that count as beamers are Green&UV beamers while HCL/Lancer/Cutters fall into the same weaponclass as Particle beams.
You can't trust the Liir. Never trust someone that smiles all the time.

User avatar
ignus
Posts: 1397
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:25 am

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by ignus » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:54 pm

Magnum wrote:I know this is about drones but as far as bigger ships go I'm pretty certain in various threads its been stated that reflective coating does in fact cut down on HCL damage, not reflecting it just lessening the overall damage taken.

It has also been stated lots of times that it's incorrect, that reflectives have no effect on heavy beams. Never stopped this false statement from being repeated though.

User avatar
AlanF5
Posts: 1492
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:14 pm

Re: Any benefit to Improved Reflective on Drones?

Post by AlanF5 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:23 pm

Azure wrote:Yes, based on the numbers - improved reflective should have some benefit...however, has anyone actually tested this? Has anyone put improved reflective on morrigi drones?
If you wish to test this yourself, the following procedure may help: Design two different drones, with different weapon systems, one with coating and one without. The different weapon systems are so hat you can more easily distiguish between them in the field. Save the game right before and engagement against a PD heavy foe. Lock the camera onto a drone and watch until it is destroyed. With the camera locked on and zoomed in, you should be able to see and hear weapon strikes and reflections.

I have just trusted the coating to work rather than fussing aobut with tests, and slapped it on drones when I get the chance.
Azure wrote: Part of the issue is that I have no idea what the base reflection angle is going to be...is it a uniform distribution of shots - or do the battles result in a more normal form distribution. If uniform, then easy to tell from the numbers how effective a certain armor would be against various weapons. However, I am guessing the base reflection in practice will not be uniform - probably could estimate a more normal form distribution - but the question would be what the mean is.
The "base reflection angle" or "mean" is going to be a regular beast to compute, in part because drones are going to be fired on from just about every angle. You might as well assume a uniform distribution.
Download my zombie outbreak mini-sim: unfortunately, it's not Fort Zombie.

Winner of the "Guess what the zerker discs are an homage to?" race. (The Mandarin's ten rings)

Post Reply

Return to “The Weapons”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests