Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

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fibio
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by fibio » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:47 pm

Lets see, a couple of turns to finish your current project. Just the one for RC but you might want to take two more to get the improved version against pulsed phaser. Then you need to apply that to your ship designs. Never mind that it isn't retroactive so only your new ships are affected. I'd say somewhere around three turns minimum to start pumping out warships but in a war maybe as many as ten to pull together a resistant force depending on how stretched you are.

Against a human they could take half your systems in that time.
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by ZedF » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:23 pm

If they can take over half your systems in that time, you've surrendered too much initiative already, and having RC would not have made a difference to the outcome. ;)
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Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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fibio
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by fibio » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:45 pm

I disagree, reducing your damage by any amount gives you ground, though I concur I'd far rather find out how my fleet fairs in combat above their planets :twisted:
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by fiendishrabbit » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:05 pm

It's all about catching on to the enemys gameplan isn't it?
Sometimes it's always a good idea (if you're a morrigi drone user!).
Sometimes it's only a good idea some of the time. Weigh the potential advantage of having your UV destroyers fitted with RC and blowing the hell out of his UV destroyer fleet....or finding yourself up against an opponent that decided to go focus on his AP mass driver cruisers, got a viable cruiser fleet 6 turns before you did and squashed the strategically important colony you were going to use as your forward industrial base.
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by ZedF » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:16 pm

fibio wrote:I disagree, reducing your damage by any amount gives you ground, though I concur I'd far rather find out how my fleet fairs in combat above their planets :twisted:

If you don't have time to counter-design to whatever your opponent is fielding, it doesn't matter what exactly that is, his doom fleets have caught you underprepared and you've already lost the game. End of story. Even if you had RC you would still be pushed back and crushed when his next gen ships come out, if not before. In any situation where the game is not already lost, you will be able to buy enough time to counter-design; RC is useful but not so much so that you can't make do without for a while, and it's not so difficult to get that it takes a long time to get into service.

You either get RC early enough that it makes a difference before your opponent switches away from the laser tree -- and if you see he's continuing to climb the laser tree, that is a good clue that you might want to invest in countermeasures -- or you gamble that your own offense will be stronger for having invested that money elsewhere. Most of the time that's a good gamble, but not in every case, and it pays to be able to tell the difference.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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Vemarkis
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by Vemarkis » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:50 am

I dunno about rc or polysilicates & the like being useless. I just had a game today where practically speaking, I had lost to the enemy by turn 70, but I managed to drag out my demise until about 200 turns, just by researching 2 basic techs: polysilicate and reflective coating against x-ray lasers & the likes. If this had been a game with more than 2 players, somebody could have potentially stepped in during those 130 turns of prolonged mop-up and turned the tide of the war.

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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by ZedF » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:14 am

RC certainly isn't useless. It's situational. Obviously, in your situation, it was a good value for the investment, and you had time to put it into service when you saw you would be needing it. :)

Poly is almost never useless. Even if the enemy is not using ballistics, bonus HP are bonus HP.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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Space Voyager
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by Space Voyager » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:54 pm

True.

I usually love ref in early game, but I stop using it later in DN age as the weapons get bigger and lasers are taken out of use or are insignificant.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

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Profound_Darkness
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by Profound_Darkness » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:57 am

Still... there is nothing I like quite as much as pounding an enemy with DNs and big weapons and suddenly switching to pulsed phaser DE swarms with Adamantite or Quark armor. I have gone with X-Rays over Pulsed as well.

I tend to have more than 1 'doom' fleet as it were and generally each fleet is different. In the DE era all my fleets are the same basically. CRs there are variants on designs and layouts for the fleets. DNs, every one is unique, often with different weapon systems (though I may make an extra DN group or 2 if 1 mix of weapons proves particularly effective).

As far as the original question, there is something special about playing standoff with a fast race, broadsides with Hivers, and dead on with Tarka and their heavy mounts (AM cannons).

I always found beams to be more for furballs and they are nice alpha strike weapons with cloaking (advanced or not).
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by Iztok » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:23 am

Hi!
ZedF wrote:RC certainly isn't useless. It's situational.
After I've watched very carefully my previous battles with xLaser and pPhasor heavy Liir, I've added a line to my book of thumb-rules: "No more any ref. coating on ships after xLasers are out."

To pay for a ship ~30% more, just to deflect about 10% of shots from quite a low-in-numbers weapon, simply doesn't make sense. I'd keep using RC, if it would (at least partially) deflect one additional weapon line, like "heavy combat lasers" one. (Those too are lasers, aren't they? :? ) How it stands now, I rather prefer having 4 ships taking 5% more cumulative damage to 3 ships taking 5% less damage. :roll:

BR, Iztok
Last edited by Iztok on Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Space Voyager
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by Space Voyager » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:29 am

Iztok wrote:Those too are lasers, aren't they? :?

I agree.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

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DervMan
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by DervMan » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:08 am

I'm not sure I agree with regards to X-Ray Lasers. In my current game, the Tarka Cruisers are using either Reflective Coating or Improved Reflective Coating and plenty of my X-Ray bolts are being deflected. :(
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Space Voyager
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by Space Voyager » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:23 am

DervMan wrote:I'm not sure I agree with regards to X-Ray Lasers. In my current game, the Tarka Cruisers are using either Reflective Coating or Improved Reflective Coating and plenty of my X-Ray bolts are being deflected. :(

That is cruiser era where small turrets are still plentiful. In DN era their numbers are very small and their cumulative power MUCH smaller than (relatively) additional cost to the ships needed for protection against them.

I don't mind that really. So what, RC is (can be) very useful right up to the DN age.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by ZedF » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:48 am

The other thing to remember is that, eventually in a large/advanced enough game, you start raking in more money than it's convenient to spend... at which point you might as well put on every bell and whistle you can.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

WarpObscura
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Re: Heavy Anti Matter Cannons vs Beams?

Post by WarpObscura » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:36 am

I'm really sorry for the bad, bad necro, but I didn't want to create a new topic for related queries.

Namely, where does one line become better than the other? Ideally you'd have both HACs and Meson Beams, but what if Sado gives you only, say, HPCs or HFCs and Neutron or Positron Beams? Which then is the better? Or are there other large mount weapons I should be looking at then?

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