Counter to Heavy Beams?

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Maerlyn
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Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by Maerlyn » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:10 pm

So what is the counter to a Morrigi Heavy Beam ship armed with 8 HCL or even worse, Lancers?

Off course, don't let them get the money to afford a lot of them, ok, sure, but besides that?
(I am talking late fission, early fusion)
I mean there are a lot of good and rather cheap ways in this game to counter something, Laser-PD counters missiles, reflective coating counters laser etc. is there a similar way to counter Heavy Beams?

Do f.e. Disruptors work? I read they only reset turreted weapons and Heavy Beams are clearly not turreted, are they?

Should I simply get more armor meaning more HP? Or should I opt for a destroyerswarm? Missiles and running will work only if he doesn't have sufficient PD. Sniper Canons wont do enough, are there other ways to keep him out of shooting range?

What do you do?

Thanx :)

Maerlyn

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:51 pm

Disruptor Shields should work the best.

Maerlyn
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by Maerlyn » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:12 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:Disruptor Shields should work the best.


Great idea, cool. Aint thought of this one. However, chances are that you ll not roll them, any second ideas?

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:34 pm

Battlebridges/Blazers are slow. Try kiting them with missile boats.

ZedF
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Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by ZedF » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:31 am

Actually they tend to be pretty easy to deal with using conventional ballistic guns, since enough knock-about will prevent them from getting a solid lockon with those beam barrages. And ballistics ships are cheap enough that you can easily afford to trade ship-for-ship and still come out way ahead.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Maerlyn
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by Maerlyn » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:03 am

BlueTemplar wrote:Disruptor Shields should work the best.


Blue Templar: you are my hero :sots1: ! (The second time already after your DPS file)

Yesterday I was playing another 1vs1 against one of my mates. 120 Planets Mountain Galaxy.

He was playing Human, I tried the Liir again. I was playing an Eco-start, defending his few attacks (to which I lost 3 young colonies) with Light Emitter cruisers. So when I started to go for Fusion all I had was:
Polysilicate Alloys, Reflective Coating, Light Emitter, cruiser and cruiser CnC.

Suddenly, right when I finished Fusion, a 86 ship fleet consisting mainly of cruisers arrived at my left flank. I had 5 Colonies there (including a Size 8 Jewel, my best colony by far) and behind those 5 colonies, just ~12 Lightyears away: Muur :awesome:. The bulk of his cruisers where those dreaded Blazerships to whom I had no answer in our last game. Armed with HCL, UV Lasers and Laser PD. I panicked and nearly got a heartattack once I spotted his huge fleet.

And these ships just crushed through my fleets. I was setting everything on maximum overharvest, pumping out Sattelites and Emitter cruisers, but to no avail. As soon as my ships met his ships they started blazing right through them destroying half of them before I even came into shooting range.

So I teched up to Medium Emitters (there was nothing else in reach) and build up a huge Cruiser Fleet at Muur while slowing his fleet down as much as I could at my border colonies. He burned through 3 mature colonies (one of those - Ilona - I had lost twice before to his skirmishes). Once he arrived at Muur I had 37 Medium Emitter cruisers, a full ring of MD and LD Sattelites armed with Fusion missiles and was pumping out 4-5 more cruisers every turn. And although I was still outclassed (loosing 2 cruisers for every ship I killed) I managed to hold him off in a war of attrition. But at the same time he entered my empire through another Nodeline at the other side of the galaxy, destroying my defence fleet there with ease and another mature colony (Spinx).

In the meanwhile I teched up to Disruptor Shields just as you mentioned :twisted: I also got Fusion Projectors because the Emitters didnt work at all anymore. And then: WHOOOM :punch:.

The second colony he entered at the other side of the galaxy was the turning point in this war: Pyyrus. (I just hope that it was not a Pyrrhusvictory) I only had 5 cruisers there compared to his 20 ship fleet consisting of 12 Blazerships and some supportvessels: 1 CnC, 2 Medium Emitter ships and 2 of my brandnew Fusionprojector ships. All of them armed with Disruptorshields :twisted:. He had never seen those shields before (me neither). And he started blazing away on the shields, doing zero damage while my 2 Fusionprojector ships burned through his entire fleet. This was the best moment in my SOTS History so far. :thumbsup: !yay Words cant described how good it felt to finally be able to destroy these :censored: Blazerships of Terror!

With this new class of ships I was also able to defend not only Muur but also my size 8 colony right next to Muur. Meanwhile I researched Improved Stutterwarp. My new generation of warships is right now taking back the three lost colonies at the border to my left and I build a revenge Fleet at the other side of the galaxy. With the faster speed I was able to aim right at Mother Earth to teach these puny apes a lesson! (Payback is a bitch) Given my results against his Blazerships so far I moved out with only 8 of my Fusionprojector warships, 2 CnCs, 2 Emitterships and some supportvessels, all of the warships armed with Distruptorshields. However, in the meanwhile he had stopped researching Fusion and went for Massdrivers instead. So once I arrived at Earth he had some dedicated Massdriverships which aimed for my commandsection, taking out the Disruptorshields in no time after which his Blazerships had an easy time burning through my ships again. I still gave him a tough fight with equal losses on both sides, but since he was producing right there out of his homeplanet I had no chance.

Even worse, he entered my Empire on two other places with a mix of Blazerships and Massdriverships and is right now taking out two more mature colonies of mine. This was were we stopped playing yesterday night.

So I come here again to you, great master, to ask you what to do :hween: . My industrial techtree stops at Salvage&Repair and Polysilicate Alloys. So there is no way for me to get Magnoceramic Lattices to defend against his Massdrivers. And without those my Disruptor Shield commandsection is destroyed very easily. And since my Fusionprojectors got less range then his Blazerships I need to get very close to his ships which is impossible without my shields.

So what can I do? I Could opt for usual shields Mk 2. They would be in reach (I hope the Sadorandomizer offers them to me, but being Liir 95% is a good chance). But I wonder if they are even worth it with all the damage that he is dealing to me. According to some quick calculation my shields would shut down after one shot of his HCL. And since they recharge within 15 seconds, while his HCL take 22 seconds to recharge this could become funny. But he will most likely aim with two Blazerships at my ship which will destroy not only the shield but also the shield section. So, back to the drawing desk.

Antimatter is currently completely out of reach. We are in Turn 126 and I have been defending against him since turn 25 where he destroyed my first colony. So I dont have got any trade till now and I doubt that he had the time for this as well. We are both at around ~ 18-20 colonies I guess. I have lost 6 different colonies so far (one of those 3 times) and am about to loose another 1-2 right now. I was only capable to take down 1 of his colonies, a very young one, and 2 colonies that he just took from me with two more to follow right at our border at my side of the galaxy.

I think we are pretty equal. Currently he is ahead in income, population and ships while i am ahead in colonies (still) and technology. Besides the ships, where he has always been ahead, every other place is changing frequently so this game is a very very close one still I think.

Besides the shields I am planning to reasearch Nodetracking so I finally know all his entrypoints into my Empire as well as megafreighters and FTL economics in order to start getting at least some trade income.

I got no weapons besides PD, Fusionprojector, Fusion Warheads and Medium Emitter. The Sadorandomizer would allow me to get Heavy Emitters and Heavy Plasma Cannon, but not the usual Fusion Cannon (nor A.I.). Although I just love the sound and the look of the Fusionprojector and what he does to Blazerships :love: I think that I went for the wrong weapon since getting close enough is a problem with all his blazerships firing at me. (Its my first time seeing a projector in action).

OFC I could opt for Blazerships myself. But I wonder how smart this is given the fact that my ships are made of paper and the fact that he's already got massdrivers to spin my ships around. Besides that its quite boring.

I could also try to go for dreadnoughts. (I ve never seen one in action so far). But I wonder if they are really worth all the researcheffort right now. Will those 4 projectors fire at the same cruiser :? !Q! ? This will be a complete overkill since if I get up close enough 2 hits seem to be enough. Can I even get up close with a DN while 5 Blazerships of Terror are firing at me? Do dreadnoughts dominate cruisers the same way cruisers dominate destroyers? Since he stopped researching Fusion (I guess he's restarted it in the meanwhile) I am quite ahead of him on the way to dreadnoughts.

Another Idea of a fried of mine are torpedoes and keeping him in distance. But would Fusion torpedoes deal enough damage? He uses a shitload of laser PD. And Gluonic torpedoes dont do enough damage in the distance, do they?

Wow, what a long post. This was quite a game yesterday (runnig for 10 hours straight).

Thanx for reading and thanx for the game. What a game!
Maerlyn (currently residing on Muur)

P.S.: I really hope my ape-enemy is not reading this topic, OMG :oops:

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Use your mobility against him :
- Until he gets Fusion, what might work is to run away from his ships with HH/Armor/ISW CR filled with (Fusion or AM) missiles and laser PD. Watch out, some people tend to be very annoyed by this tactic.
- Bring the right tool to the combat : Use fast HH/Amor/ISW Emitter CR to quickly kill the Mass Driver ships, then when his Blazers show up, just run away (maybe sacrificing one CR as bait) and bring in the Disruptor/Projectors...
- Fusion torpedoes might work indeed : a Liir Assault / Barrage (needs HCL) CR can have 5 of them! And none of his weapons are really great at killing them (laser PD doesn't really do enough damage). Like with missiles, you should run away, except that this time you have to turn towards his ships again just before the torpedoes are reloaded to be able to fire them. Then turn away and run again. He will catch up to you eventually, but your torpedoes should have done enough damage by then...

My industrial techtree stops at Salvage&Repair and Polysilicate Alloys.

I doubt that, since Asteroid Mining is a core tech...

Maerlyn
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by Maerlyn » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:58 pm

Yeah, I ment Asteroid Mining and Polysilicate Alloys.

Just to end the story above:

The Ape and the Fishes were batteling for ages, both of us couldnt really inevst neither in tech nor in trade since we were building huge fleets and kept destroying them again and again suffering similar losses. So we decided to give it a break and I doubt we will ever travel this Galaxy again. It was just a lot of work building, deffing, building, attacking again and again and again and never gaining any ground nor any real advantage. Sad, but thats how it is :(

fredNN
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by fredNN » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:30 pm

Maerlyn wrote:... both of us couldnt really inevst neither in tech nor in trade ...

This is not good for Liir. Liir need research because small hab value == less planet habitable.
Liir ship fragile so Liir NEED research to get better weapon to do more damage. No research == crippled Liir.

I think your friend is very good strategist.

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usermist2
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Re: Counter to Heavy Beams?

Post by usermist2 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:03 am

A different approach to "countering"heavy beams that doesn't require any specific technology, although some technologies will work better than others.

Outnumber the cruisers with destroyers, and keep moving the destroyer fleet out of the line of fire. Since you can move around your opponent faster than their cruisers can turn, you shouldn't lose that many DEs, while constantly pounding them with various weaponry will eventually make them go boom. Sure, there are faster ways to do the job, but if you don't mind a bit of controlling your fleet directly, you should be able to come out on top, with far less losses than three to one (what a DE costs, CP-wise compared to a CR).
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