Ballistic Weapons

Galactic diplomacy with extreme prejudice.
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Coyote27
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by Coyote27 » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:20 pm

Adamantine is nice if you have it in your tree and can survive long enough to research it. :)
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whatamidoinghere
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by whatamidoinghere » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:36 pm

I used to rush stormers and heavy stormers as humans and just spam out HH/armor cruisers with stormers everywhere. I steamrolled a few empires, but definitely not a good long-term solution.
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AlanF5
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by AlanF5 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:03 pm

I don't think I've seen it explicity mentioned, and it is only a valid tactic against cruisers, but... Because a blown section no longer has armor deflection, pouring stormer fire into a blown section should finish the ship in a hurry.
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The_Pastmaster
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by The_Pastmaster » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:56 pm

I usually blow the ship before a section caves
I realize that pulsars are not part of the Canadian military arsenal, but I find that if you shampoo an angry beaver aggressively with "oily hair" shampoo to dry out it's fur and rub it vigorously against a balloon before flinging it at the enemy with a trebuchet, you get a similar effect.

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ignus
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by ignus » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:42 pm

The_Pastmaster wrote:I usually blow the ship before a section caves

Unless you are only fighting DNs all the time, I very much doubt that. :wink:

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The_Pastmaster
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by The_Pastmaster » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:32 pm

Well, yeah. out of 10 ships, 6 or 7 are dreads
I realize that pulsars are not part of the Canadian military arsenal, but I find that if you shampoo an angry beaver aggressively with "oily hair" shampoo to dry out it's fur and rub it vigorously against a balloon before flinging it at the enemy with a trebuchet, you get a similar effect.

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whatamidoinghere
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by whatamidoinghere » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:53 pm

Most of the time, the ship is on the verge of death when it gets a section blown off. A single stormer salvo would finish it off anyways.
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Space Voyager
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by Space Voyager » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:51 am

whatamidoinghere wrote:Most of the time, the ship is on the verge of death when it gets a section blown off. A single stormer salvo would finish it off anyways.

Perhaps if you don't use targeting. Otherwise you can have a section blown off while the rest of the ship can still take a beating.
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Re:

Post by BKB » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:57 am

AceKicker wrote:Ok, as far as a physics standpoint, I may have something that will satisfy the physics involved. As we all know by now, the inertia of the mass fired from a ship would normally be equal and opposite to the point on the ship it was fired from. Most attempts at counteracting the force would be very intensive and/or would rip the ship apart.

So the solution is simple. Don't counteract it. Just be rid of the inertia.

Ok, so maybe not so simple, but you have to assume that all races have some sort of inertial dampening technology available. Just the hard accelerations and maneuvers on the tactical map would send the crew inside through unsurvivable g-forces without it. Obviously they can't dampen the itertia on the entire ship at once (unless you're Liir), but it's quite possible to have a combination of retro thrusters, and a recoil system that softens the blow just enough so a directed and localized inertial dampening device could bleed out the inertia from firing. Do we have physics in real life to explain this? No. But I'm enacting the futuristic technology clause on this one. At the very least for the setting it's plausible.

That is until you guys start ripping it apart. :P


This would work (given that you could manipulate inertia). It would also open up intriguing possibilities in the armor tech - when a shot comes in, increase the inertia in the armor zone. The shot impacts and transfers its momentum, but it results in a small delta-v for the armor. Then turn the field off, and the buckling armor can be stopped rather easily.

As a side note, it could also be used as an infinite energy machine with ease.

Monkeyking
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by Monkeyking » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:24 am

The Liir teleoport they don't move and their is a inertia weapon but no armor yet.
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Cralis
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by Cralis » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:57 pm

After having played this game, I think ballistic weapons are heavily broken against specific races. They are not unbalanced with respect to damage, range, and ability until you get to railguns - which are unbalanced because they have the longest range, some of the highest damage, AND they are ballistics.

And ballistics are broken because they have so much "kick" when they hit pretty much anyone but Hive and Liir.

Why is this a problem? Because you cannot fight if your ships are spread out so far vertically that you can't see them without looking straight up or straight down. Since ballistic races tend to target the drive section, you can't retreat your ships and get new ones back into play ... assuming of course your command ship isn't somewhere near Polaris.

Sure "play another race" - whatever, shut up. "use deflectors" - yeah, when I don't get them I'll just pull them out of my arse or something. You cannot count on tech that isn't 100% there. "use shields" - again, you cannot count on tech that isn't 100% there.

I play Tarka and Humans mostly, and most of the time anymore if I encounter a heavily ballistic race I start over. It is an exercise in extreme frustration and the game is not enjoyable once (especially a Hive or Zuul) rushes you, rams your ships, and then sends them spinning into the void unable to fight back or work together. This is even worse then the zuul start using pulsar torpedoes en masse, because now your ship has no power and is unable to try and correct itself. No formation changes this. Since the hive and zuul are some of the fastest ships in the game, you can't escape them. And now the new railgun makes it so they can do it from further than any other weapon except for missiles (which are practically useless at that point in the game).

If Kerberos will not make the kinetics have less kick, then they should make ships able to recover faster. Or make it so I can select at the time I start a game "high kick ballistcs <-> low kick ballistics". That way you hard arse whiners who will inevitably say something retarded like "play the liir", "use ballistics then", or "deal with it" -- and have zero clue on why you don't frustrate your players -- can play with it if you like. I don't really care if I don't see a massive spinning effect because that massive effect makes the game absolutely frustrating.

Getting knocked around some I can handle. Getting my engines blown 30% of the time and then kicked dozens of screen lengths away is farking retarded. Especially now that it can happen from beyond any reasonable weapon range.

Ken Birdwell once said in a Gamasutra article "A final theory was that the players should always blame themselves for failure. If the game kills them off with no warning, then players blame the game and start to dislike it."

If you don't understand what he is saying -> if the game puts you in a situation in which you have no control, no recourse to fix or counter, then you blame the game and stop playing it. He is _a_b_s_o_l_u_t_e_l_y_ correct.

In terms of game design, it has become more frustrating then the unbalanced node canon. At least with the node canon I have a technology 100% of the time I can use against it (destroyers) that doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to build.

Please fix this or tell me how to mod it so I can fix it, put in the option, or I may be forced to stop playing. It is _that_ frustrating.
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Mecron
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by Mecron » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:55 am

You seem to be in a head space where you see something as narrow focused situationally as the node cannon as "unbalanced" even though you go on to name a trivial counter? You play one of the most easily armored/most optimally shaped for richochet races in the game (tarks) yet you can't seem to shrug off standard ballistics like rain?

The very fact that after 3 years, this topic is NOT buried under posts just like yours should perhaps have been a clue that you were missing something...unless of course everyone else is "farking retarded" which may explain the anomaly.

Ultimately, Sots gives you the tools and the methods to deal with anything in a variety of ways, but if you find no joy in applying them or figuring out how to apply them, then not all the gamasutra articles in the world are going to change that.

Cralis
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by Cralis » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:02 pm

If the counter is so trivial, then name another weapon that can destroy millions of credits worth of ships (like 4 DN) right from "go" and costs as little as the node canon. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

"All or nothing" designs are bad designs. Period. You either get hosed or the other guy does, and there is no competition in the middle. The lack of struggle will either make it frustrating (if your the loser) or boring (if your the winner), and what fun is that? Not good at all.

It is a "very good thing" in real life, as long as your the one who owns the weapon. That is the whole point of the asynchronous weapon philosophy we follow in America. But it makes a boring game.

I have in my current game quark resonators. There is only one armor higher, and I didn't get it. And I still get bounced around by the heavy-ballistic hive like butterflies in a wind storm. Especially by heavy stormers and especially by railguns.

And whats up with the computer being able to ram ships? Myself and the half dozen or so people i've played with have tried nearly everything and we can't get our ships to intentionally ram the opponent's ships. There is no better way to blast someone into the next light year then to hit them with pulsar torpedoes, ram them, and then let lose a barrage of ballistics to give them fractional light speed. Remember the "all or nothing" above? Yeah, back to that.

No, I don't have deflectors. No, I have only shield I (I didn't get anything higher). Neither the hive nor the two zuuls have shields or deflectors so I can't steal it. If you have some sort of cheat to fix this, I'd love to hear it. It is possible that I missed some sort of command line option or super-secret pixel to the options screen. I doubt it, but it is possible.

I have watched many a person question this in the past. I have seen the devs officially answer that "yeah we know its a pain, but we want you to be able to see ships spinning around". I don't agree. I think it is utterly frustrating and there should be an option to "tone it down because I don't care about pretty special effects done simply to make you go 'weee!' "

Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if the computer didn't intentionally target drive sections, or if the interface wasn't so horrible when your ships are so far off the vertical that you can't see your opponent when you focus on your ship, even though his ship's graphics are overlapping yours in a 2D view (like the sensor view).

Whatever the case, recently it has just become too much since ANY. Up to ANY it wasn't that horrible, but after it is worse. And it sucks because ANY adds so much content that I wouldn't want to play without it. I love the game to death but this has gotten my blood pressure up and that probably means its time for an option to be added, a mod, or a new game. I'd hate to pass up such a great game over what should be an optional thing.
-- Cralis --

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ignus
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by ignus » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:54 pm

Cralis wrote:If the counter is so trivial, then name another weapon that can destroy millions of credits worth of ships (like 4 DN) right from "go" and costs as little as the node canon. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

Very bad example. It takes 3-4 node cannon hits to kill one DN (one hit is roughly 15000 damage IIRC). If you lose 4 DNs to one node cannon before killing it, you ought to rethink your combat strategy :lol:

Magnum
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Re: Ballistic Weapons

Post by Magnum » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:25 am

Wow thats an impressive amount of QQ backed up by threats not to play the game unless the QQ is catered to. I particularly like how this isn't an issue of mega unbalanced fun-destruction for ohhh say the rest of the player base.

I could offer advice or point to other threads (hint: there are a lot of them) that competently respond to the problems being faced in the post but I think I will pass. Abusive whining doesn't really make me feel all the helpful.

Ciao :twisted:

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