Ballistic Weapons

Galactic diplomacy with extreme prejudice.
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Mecron
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Post by Mecron » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:47 pm

"If you are wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts?
La, la, la, la!
Then repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax!'
For Mystery Science Theater 3000!!!!!"

:lol:

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Darth Meatloaf
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Post by Darth Meatloaf » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:57 pm

Mecron wrote:"If you are wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts?
La, la, la, la!
Then repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax!'
For Mystery Science Theater 3000!!!!!"

:lol:


haha. MST3K RULES! gotta love the hilarity that ensues when a group of midwesterners get drunk...

(from the MST3K movie...) "Look! I can se the Cubs losing from here..."
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
If you would have peace, prepare for war. -Motto of the Black Swimmers

*My name will differ online with the race I play.

Hiver: Winged Horror
Human: Ensign Ricky
Liir: Cathal
Tarka: Darth Meatloaf

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Mecron
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Post by Mecron » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:15 pm

"Ewwww, there are soccer teams scattered all over the place!"

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Darth Meatloaf
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Post by Darth Meatloaf » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:27 pm

Mecron wrote:"Ewwww, there are soccer teams scattered all over the place!"


This is your fault, Mec...

(From my FAVORITE MST3K - "Mitchell")

Joel: "Look - it's that kid from 'Fame'."

Tom Servo: "Which one?"

Joel: "Any of 'em..."
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
If you would have peace, prepare for war. -Motto of the Black Swimmers

*My name will differ online with the race I play.

Hiver: Winged Horror
Human: Ensign Ricky
Liir: Cathal
Tarka: Darth Meatloaf

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Omega_Paladin
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Post by Omega_Paladin » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:42 pm

"Susie and her friends climbed eagerly up the steps to their new college.."
"AND THEN A LONE GUNMAN" *bam bam bam*
"I must use your vulgar modern vernacular to properly compound insult upon indignity and state: this blows."

President of Calenders of the Kerberos Team's Beards Fan Club

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Major Diarrhia
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Post by Major Diarrhia » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:12 pm

EntropyAvatar wrote:I was talking about the 100kg shot where the impact would cause the target ship to go flying off at 3 km/s. It would take one heck of a thruster to counteract that scale of impulse. I agree that for projectiles of more manageable mass (like 10 grams), some sort of orientation thruster would be fine.

Anyway, I just found it funny, this picture of a little ship getting hit, then flying away at Mach 10.

They just fire a nuke off behind the gun every time it fires. :lol:

BatAttack
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Post by BatAttack » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:07 am

Hmmm... we have a mixture of "its a game" and "its physics" explanations that aren't really compatible with each other.

- Its pretty obvious from looking at the ballistic rounds in flight that they are not travelling anywhere near the speed of light. In fact, they dont look too much faster than tank rounds in Combat Mission (which are a precise physical simulation) - though the scale is deifferent (30m destroyers instead of 6m tanks) so they are probably about 5x to 10x faster than a high velocity tank shell.

- As someone already pointed out, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The ship firing the ballistic round should be sent spinning (or just moving) just as the ship being hit is. We have seen the ships accelerate forwards at full speed (presumably their maximum level of thrust) which is less than the moment of impulse they experience when hit by a mass driver, maneuvering thrusters would not compensate for this (though they would stabilise the ship after firing - but it would take a second or two).

- If the shell is entirely absorbed by the hull, then yes, all the kinetic energy of the shell will be absorbed by the ship it hits - BUT - not all of that energy will affect the velocity of the entire ship. Much of the kinetic energy will be used to deform the hull and structure, and much of the kinetic energy will be transformed into thermal energy. Whatever energy is left will be put into changing the ship's linear and angular velocity.
After all, hull destruction and heat do occur on impact, and the shell can't create energy - it all has to come from the shell's kinetic energy.

- If the shell were travelling at near light speed, it would pass stright through the hull, and would continue travelling at high velocity on the other side. The ship would only absorb a tiny fraction of the shell's energy. If the hull was suitably strong, the hull would have a small hole all they way through.

- Regarding the fact that we (or I) are willing to accept telepathic dolphins and FTL travel, but complain about ballistic weapons... that's because the mechanics of ballistic weapons - kinetic collisions - are some of the simplest and best understood parts of physics. It can't really be compared to speculative 'future technology'.


Anyway, I know a perfect simulation is not always the best game, so
I'm not complaining about that. I'm happy to go with the 'gameplay' reason.

My only sadness is that it makes the ships look like toys, not like 30m
destroyers. It takes away from the suspension of disbelief somewhat..
But whatever - I've pre-ordered the game, so it's obviously not a deal breaker. :P
Last edited by BatAttack on Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Omega_Paladin
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Post by Omega_Paladin » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:14 am

Dude, guys....what if the shells....were made of jello
"I must use your vulgar modern vernacular to properly compound insult upon indignity and state: this blows."

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Darkchampion
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Post by Darkchampion » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:31 am

EntropyAvatar wrote:Uh, what about the destroyer that *fired* this mass driver round?


Naturally it would be flying 3000m/s in the opposite direction assuming again that the destroyer is extremely sturdy and the weapon didnt tear a hole through the ship on it's way out the other side :) Although if you put a second accelerator of equal strength around the outside of the first and it fires in the opposite direction, the "kick" from the shot would be negated. Although it is unlikely that the weapon itself would survive beyond the first shot due to the amount of stress involved (it would crush itself).

But as others have said, if realistic physics applied to this game it wouldnt be nearly as fun. You'd have vessels thousands of KM apart shooting at eachother with any successful hit scored on the opponent being immediately fatal in nearly all circumstances. There's just not much that can stop a projectile moving at those kind of speeds without catastrophic destruction.

And I like my Tarka fire control/armor (mass driver)/fusion (mass driver) DDs as they are :twisted:

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Darkchampion
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Post by Darkchampion » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:35 am

Omega_Paladin wrote:Dude, guys....what if the shells....were made of jello


A 100kg hunk of jello going at .01 lightspeed would exert the same amount of force on impact as a 100kg metal slug. Although of course a 100kg bowl of jello would be substantially larger and have the force of impact distributed over a wider surface area :)

"ZOMG THEY ARE SHOOTING JELLO ROUNDS AT US!! EVASIVE ACTION!"

BatAttack
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Post by BatAttack » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:51 am

Yah, in space, with no air resistance to worry about, even mashmellows fired at near relativistic speeds would cause massive damage to space craft.

Ramius
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Post by Ramius » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:27 am

Darkchampion wrote:"ZOMG THEY ARE SHOOTING JELLO ROUNDS AT US!! EVASIVE ACTION!"


JELLO SHOTS!!! JELLO SHOTS!!!! Get it right!! :twisted:

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ChaosMaster130
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Post by ChaosMaster130 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:45 am

PUDDING LASERS!!!!! DO A BARREL ROLL!!!!!
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Draven
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Post by Draven » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:32 pm

We have anti recoil technology now, so into the future i dont seea problem with the firing ship not being sent flying after shooting. Yes something needs to be done with that energy, such as the barrel moving backwards like an artillery cannon; and they do. Another possability is that the gauss cannons and such dont use a pure explosion projection and use or assist with magnetic fields to increase the velocity of the projectile without creating a massive recoil.

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Wyvern
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Post by Wyvern » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:38 pm

Draven wrote:We have anti recoil technology now, so into the future i dont seea problem with the firing ship not being sent flying after shooting. Yes something needs to be done with that energy, such as the barrel moving backwards like an artillery cannon; and they do. Another possability is that the gauss cannons and such dont use a pure explosion projection and use or assist with magnetic fields to increase the velocity of the projectile without creating a massive recoil.


A Gauss cannon by definition uses magnetic fields. They don't solve the problem of recoil; there is still an equal and opposite reaction to the acceleration given to the projectile.

PS I'm always disappointed in the De Gauss button on CRTs...
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Fhtagn?
Wyvern

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