Shields

Galactic diplomacy with extreme prejudice.
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harperbrad
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Re: Shields

Post by harperbrad » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:38 pm

Chernobog wrote:
Mecron wrote:you mean like brad suggested? :lol:


Erm. What's this 'fall back' thing? I think Newton objects to this notion. For Liir the maneuver might be possible. Maybe. Remember that this isn't the ancient world, and it's outright impossible to form a line that mechanically blocks the enemy's advance. As my regularly overrun command ships could attest.


You "fall back" by not advancing as fast as the second rank. Two ranks advance. Once in weapons range, rank 1 stops, rank2 continues forward. The front line will tend to soak up more damage, even when your ranks are overrun. That's why I tend to send my CnC for mop-up behind my main force.

In the event you are massively outgunned, this tactic will not work. The first rank gets hit, falls back, and everyone gets killed as the enemy overruns the line. When facing an equal amount of firepower, you'll come out on top, because your ships survive and his don't.
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Kaorti
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Re: Shields

Post by Kaorti » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:24 pm

harperbrad wrote:When facing an equal amount of firepower, you'll come out on top, because your ships survive and his don't.


But shield sections on DEs reduce the available firepower significantly. You end up needing to outnumber your opponents jut to bring equal amounts of firepower to the fight. Because of this, it seems less expensive and just as viable to simply use armor sections and bring more weapons. You can still use the same tactics to preserve your ships. You'll end up with a larger repair cost, but DE fleets rarely run out of repair if they have a Salvage CR along.
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Chernobog
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Re: Shields

Post by Chernobog » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:50 pm

I find the part about the front rank soaking up more damage than the back to generally not hold up well, but that may be something about my formations or tactics.

The key difference between 'fall back' and 'advance more slowly' is that one of them actually gets you away from the enemy weapons, and the other does the opposite...

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Rayp
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Re: Shields

Post by Rayp » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:01 pm

Mecron wrote:does AM armor regrow...umm..no its doesn't...do liir get AM armor as much as mk 4 shields? umm no. Do hivers get Mk 4 shields as much as AM armor?...etc etc etc.


Does armor makes you forfeit a section? No. Does anything bounce of shields? No. Does shields makes ships fight longer... Not from my experience.

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harperbrad
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Re: Shields

Post by harperbrad » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:17 pm

Chernobog wrote:I find the part about the front rank soaking up more damage than the back to generally not hold up well, but that may be something about my formations or tactics.

The key difference between 'fall back' and 'advance more slowly' is that one of them actually gets you away from the enemy weapons, and the other does the opposite...


Because you put someone else in the firing line...

In a battle, this gets messy, but the basic tactic is sound. Put the shielded guys out front, put the exhausted guys in back. When the exhausted guys are ready to rumble again, cycle. Even though they do less offensive damage than the other force, the other force is being whittled away, while your forces continue to dish out the same amount of damage.

If a single ship has had its shield pop and regen 5 times, that's a huge advantage. The same amount of damage should have killed the ship several times over.
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harperbrad
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Re: Shields

Post by harperbrad » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:19 pm

Of course, shields have several very important drawbacks... EM Pulsars and shield breakers. EM Pulsars and torpedoes are just evil. They take out your shields, _and_ shut down your ship. They even kill your deflectors (30 sec of *oh shit*). Adamantine armor doesn't have this problem, but I have yet to roll that particular tech...
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Mecron
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Re: Shields

Post by Mecron » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:14 am

yes ray...armor and shields are indeed diffferent. Congratulations!! :P This is why we chose the word "armor" for the metally bits and the word "shields" for the see-throughy bits!

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Rayp
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Re: Shields

Post by Rayp » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:24 am

Mecron wrote:yes ray...armor and shields are indeed diffferent. Congratulations!! :P This is why we chose the word "armor" for the metally bits and the word "shields" for the see-throughy bits!


Can you name me one good use for shields that makes them *worth* using? They have no real advantage besides soaking a fraction of what the hull can take while taking away needed firepower and providing a weak hull section...

Just await your next sarcasm ridden answer.

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Mecron
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Re: Shields

Post by Mecron » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:43 am

Ohhhhh so many replies...so little good will. But instead...the one of us WITH too much time on their hands should probably look up the hit point differences(including the hps provided by the shield) between a MK4 shield cruiser with full armor and the same cruiser with a hammerhead section and Admantite. I won't ask you to think it terms of shields that provide specialized invulnerability to half the weapons tree, like meson and grav shields...cause that doesn't involve literal numbers and is all abstract and stuff.


(was that good? "Sarcasm ridden" is kind of hard to nail. Filled...but not really "oozing" with sarcasm. Kind of hard to get just right....let me know if it was too much/too little.) :lol:

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Re: Shields

Post by DatonKallandor » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:08 am

Rayp wrote:
Mecron wrote:yes ray...armor and shields are indeed diffferent. Congratulations!! :P This is why we chose the word "armor" for the metally bits and the word "shields" for the see-throughy bits!


Can you name me one good use for shields that makes them *worth* using? They have no real advantage besides soaking a fraction of what the hull can take while taking away needed firepower and providing a weak hull section...

Just await your next sarcasm ridden answer.


Shields recharge. Your hull doesn't.
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bmac4417
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Re: Shields

Post by bmac4417 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:09 am

You know, I think that has to be the best response yet in this thread.
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Chernobog
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Re: Shields

Post by Chernobog » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:42 am

harperbrad wrote:Because you put someone else in the firing line...

Ok, this is the key point I'm having a problem with. How do you do that? I have not noticed the enemy firing exclusively at the nearest target, and big as a shield-bubble is it's not easy to completely hide another ship behind it. Also, the firing line tends to become a deformed firing sphere, since the AI's favored attack tactic seems to be 'move-to enemy ships, fire at will', which makes getting behind anything tricky.

I do understand the basic concept of why shields could be good. I've just never seen it implement successfully.

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Re: Shields

Post by ZedF » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:09 am

It's a lot easier to do if you stick at long range, make battle passes, and hug the edge of the firing envelope. You're going to be circling the enemy or moving at a tangent to him. In such a case, your closer in ships whose shields drop can increase the radius at which they orbit a bit, while the ones further toward the outside can decrease their orbit a bit. Because you're hugging the edge of the firing envelope, your exhausted ships will tend to move out of range for a bit, which causes the enemy ships to lose target lock on them and switch to a closer target. That gives them the chance to recharge their shields. Additionally, if your whole group seems to be taking a pounding, because you're staying at long range it's relatively easy to temporarily disengage long enough for the shields to refresh for your whole group.

I wouldn't at all advise stopping some portion of your ships entirely, like harperbrad suggested above, with shielded DDs. That sounds like a charge into knife fighting range kind of tactic, which I don't think suits shielded ships very well at all. Shielded DDs want to do the ballet at range, not close in and slug it out.
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ZedF
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Re: Shields

Post by ZedF » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:14 am

Rayp wrote:Can you name me one good use for shields that makes them *worth* using? They have no real advantage besides soaking a fraction of what the hull can take while taking away needed firepower and providing a weak hull section...

Sometimes you just don't get any armour better than polysilicate... for instance when you are Liir... who incidentally have the best chance of getting shields...

I.E. they may not be the best damage sponge in the game, but when used properly, they will do in that role when you don't have anything else that will do the job.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Space Voyager
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Re: Shields

Post by Space Voyager » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:55 am

DatonKallandor wrote:Shields recharge. Your hull doesn't.

Not that I like stepping into this debate but shield section on a DE rarely survives first contact.

This is why I don't use the proposed Roman shield tactics that actually worked on a 2D plane where the enemy was actually unable to punch through the lines (and was stopped in front of a gladius). In space the "hold a line" argument is completely pointless. The only reason this wave thingy works is because you concentrate a lot of ships (read: guns) on a small space and the enemy doesn't.
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