RBSotS1 SG4b

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ZedF
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RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by ZedF » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:30 pm

This is a grudge match to avenge the team's defeat in RBSotS1 SG3a. It has similar settings -- Liir vs. 5 Zuul in a ring galaxy -- but I changed things up slightly this time. In particular, to give the Liir a slightly better start out of the gate, I gave them a full 15 techs. However, the Zuul also get some freebie techs this time around, where they didn't before.

Settings:
- 90 stars, alliances on, 1 Liir (player) vs. 5 Zuul (Normal AI)

SG4b Participants:
Torezu
Spellman
ErebusDL
Sir Crashalot
Red Spot
Johndunk

Image

Before starting, it might be useful to reflect on some lessons learned from last game:
  • Failure to launch = an early grave. Expansion is key in any SotS game, and especially in a close quarters match against aggressive opponents such as this. To quote various politicians over the years, "It's the economy, stupid!" :mrgreen: This means technology must take a back seat to ship production for scouting/picketing and colonization. Liir biotech is wonderful and they are the race most likely to benefit from an early rush to biomes instead of freighters, but having more colonies developing sooner is better still, in all but the most exceptional of circumstances involving bad planet luck.
  • Pickets matter. They are often your only way of knowing of enemy ship movements prior to Deep Scan, and in the earliest portions of the game deep scan is often a luxury. This is important because...
  • Killing bore ships is vital. The Zuul can't attack or expand anywhere they haven't bored a line to, and boreships are expensive. The Zuul can only replace them slowly, both from a replacement cost point of view and a time to get them to the front point of view. Sitting back and watching while the Zuul build up their bore network is as bad a policy as allowing the Hivers to build up their gate network, and should be thought of in the same terms! Bore fleets can take out any single picket, so it's important to make an effort to have reaction forces of around a half-dozen destroyers available (with superior tech) to prosecute any boreship sightings possible.
  • Never forget you are in a race to develop your economy and prevent your rivals from developing theirs, before they can do the same to you, so act accordingly! A half-dozen superior-tech destroyers makes a good garrison force for a new colony in areas where an enemy exploratory bore fleet may be likely to show up. If you get your colonies founded and defended before the Zuul get a boreship there, you win the race to that planet and have a good chance of being able to stand up a colony there. Taking a few risks on outlying worlds is often a good thing if you do it quickly enough and aggressively enough!

Keep these principles in mind and with any luck this game will fare much better than its precursor! :mrgreen:

Also, if anyone from last game has further comments, acquired through bitter experience, that they would like to add, please feel free to add your thoughts. :)

Otherwise, the save is attached, and Torezu is up, unless you wish to change the turn order, which you are of course free to do; just let me know and I will update the initial post in this thread. Every player should take 10 turns before passing off to the next player, except the first player may take 20 turns if so desired since there is usually a bit less to do in the first 10. Good luck! :thumbsup:
Last edited by ZedF on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Sir Crashalot
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Sir Crashalot » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:57 pm

Had a quick looksie and we have a nice selection of tech including mass drivers, disrupters and plasma cannon. Our second colony is large and mineral rich which is a big plus.

Off the top of my head I would recommend SA, LE then rush to cruisers and biomes followed by point defence and cnc.
Once we get there we are in the position to start hitting the nearest Zuul colonies hard, crippling them and allowing us more time and space to improve. (repair ships, armour, trade, HCL then fusion?)
If we take note what planets have sent bore fleets to our colonies then we can make those priority targets.

Good luck chaps, tally ho etc. :P

Spellman
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Spellman » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:35 pm

Initial thoughts: OH GODS THIS MAP IS SMALL. I expect to run into enemies within the first 20 turns.

Some important initial techs:
  • IO: Waldo Units. Cybernetic Interfaces. FTL Comm and Battle Computers. SWEET.
  • Defenses: PD is one tech away since we got VRF for our start. Thank goodness. We also start with Deflectors. That should keep us safe for a while.
  • Starting Weapons: DF racks, Disruptors, Plasma Cannons, and Mass Drivers. Light Emitters and Particle Beams are also in our tree. I'd say until we get Emitters to use Plasma Cannons in the middle slots. The other option is DF racks and the Shaped Nuclear Warheads we have, since w/ emitter's we're going to be close enough not to miss anyways. But at least we won't be putting Light Emitters in Medium slots like last time.
  • Bio: we start w/ Gene modification which means Suspended Animation is opened up. I'd say we open SA.
  • Engines: we start w/ Recomb Fission. Woot! Yay for bonus range for our ships.

First few turns I say we slowly tech and just spam ER/Tankers while creeping to SA. Say around 5 turns. Then colony spam with some defenses. Then startup a few assault fleets.

Initial tech vote: SA(5t)->Light Emitters(10-15t)->Cruisers->Biomes->Emitters/PD/Cruiser CnC->Fusion and Sensors.

Who would like to open us up?

We also need to figure out the order of players. I would rank myself around a 5/10. A few games under my belt, decent understanding of fundamentals, but got lots to learn. We want to spread the pros and noobs so we don't get a series of 4 weak players ruining us.

Sir Crashalot
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Sir Crashalot » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:45 pm

We can get SA in 2 turns at 50% while maxing out ship building at our planets (I think), no point dragging it out longer than necessary. In my opinion we should research up to cruiser cnc/PD as fast as we can while not hampering our colonising,defence and skirmishing efforts, then we can start bringing the pain to the Zuul before they are in the position to threaten us. It will be a balancing act that will be dictated by what kind of planets our scouts find, if we only have 300+ CH planets around us then fast biomes will be a huge advantage to us.
As for Emitters, I have no doubt about their effectiveness at close range but fear that may leave us in the same position as last game where we got pummeled before we could get close enough to use them, I prefer a balanced mix of long,med.short ranged weapons for a more versatile fleet.
I would vote on putting those sometime after PD and CNC, if we get the choice to research them that is.
Last edited by Sir Crashalot on Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

ZedF
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by ZedF » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:10 am

Spellman wrote:Initial thoughts: OH GODS THIS MAP IS SMALL. I expect to run into enemies within the first 20 turns.

15 stars per player, not really all that small. At least not unless you're used to 25+ stars per player! :)
I'd say until we get Emitters to use Plasma Cannons in the middle slots. The other option is DF racks and the Shaped Nuclear Warheads we have, since w/ emitter's we're going to be close enough not to miss anyways. But at least we won't be putting Light Emitters in Medium slots like last time.

Personally I would use mass drivers (which you have) before plasma cannons or DF racks at the start of the game as they are cheaper and more effective, at least until your nearby rivals get armour techs, and Zuul don't have great odds even for polysilicate. Even with polysilicate, mass drivers are better than plasma cannon in my experience! Once you get cruisers and are close to fusion engines, DF racks might be better, but then so might blazers...

On the other hand, dual light emitters in medium mounts isn't a bad choice at all in the early game... ;)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

ErebusDL
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by ErebusDL » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:18 am

We start out with Mass drivers and VRF, and a link to stormers...

I tend to play a energy weapon based Liir, but if we start out with mass drivers, we should just buy in.

Grab PD and just make early zuul pay.

Very weird we got MD and not LE, looks like someone wanted it that way :)

We should build some ERs, and build SA colonizers as soon as SA is done and follow them into the black, if we include a tanker with about 3 SAC they should be able to get anywhere.

Liir are so much faster in deep space, having those ships sit in space isn't going to hurt us and will get us colonies faster. Colonies on turn 6 is alot better then on turn 10.

Getting MD and not LE is just so bizarre. Also I saw plasma cannons, imo fusion cannons are light years better.

I suggest SA -> PD -> OF -> Cruisers -> Biome/CNC in either order -> Fusion.

Having fusion early is such a blessing for the liir, and I tend to get lucky with the breakthrough. If we have research at 10% after getting to 50% that's fine. But that might be high hopes.


What are ship naming convetnions and note placing conventions?

Sir Crashalot
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Sir Crashalot » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:32 am

Fine by me, though I would suggest sliding in repair ships before fusion because they can make the difference between winning and losing a protracted battle.
I would place biomes before cnc because they would enable us to colonise some planets earlier which will help us more in the long term but we are certainly going to have to go on the offence as early as possible, mass drivers are ok at bombarding and assault shuttles can be switched in to finish them off if needed.

I rarely use LEs in my games but against Zuul they seem to be pretty good, so I am open on whether to get them or not, either way I am not bothered.

Notes: What you feel is necessary, unmarked Unknowns like a new swarm nest or unknown vessels, potentially good colonies etc. I personally would like to see notes on what Zuul colonies have sent bore fleets to our worlds so we can make them primary targets.

Ship naming conventions: Descriptive based on their purpose and loadout.
Last edited by Sir Crashalot on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

ZedF
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by ZedF » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:34 am

ErebusDL wrote:Very weird we got MD and not LE, looks like someone wanted it that way :)

If someone did, it wasn't me. That's purely based on the tech order the initial 15 techs are in. I think the only way Liir would be at all likely to get LE in the first 15 techs is by failing to roll DF racks; they have too good odds on everything else to be likely to miss 'em.

Getting LE instead of PD may be a good idea, since LE will double as PD at least until the Zuul get fusion missiles or you are doing heavy assaults against well-established colonies. I don't think your green lasers will cut it for light weapons otherwise.

You may also want to consider fitting Expert Systems in there at some appropriate point as well.

Re: naming conventions: I would suggest adding a speed indicator and version indicator in addition to the descriptive name.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Sir Crashalot
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Sir Crashalot » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:53 am

In my experience I have found LEs to be pretty poor at missile defence.
A mix of the two with PD front and rear and LEs on the sides would work well.

SA - LE -> Cruisers/Biome - PD - CNC - Repair - Expert - trade - Fusion? (or thereabouts?)

Squidged in trade because it will give us something to do during the fusion slog and help boost it a bit, though that really depends on our colony status, if we have established borders with a reasonably safe centre then it is worth getting, otherwise it can wait.

Torezu
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Torezu » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:27 am

Crap. I'm away from the boards for a few hours (it seemed like) and there's already a full page on the new SG.

Zed said I was up. :twisted: Anybody not crazy with that idea? **Edit: "...unless you want to change turn order..." Okay, so, input? :D **Edit again: Have to head for bed - will check this thread again tomorrow.

For tech, I'd say follow Crashalot's plan, except I'd probably move PD back a ways unless we run into a lot of missiles, and Expert Systems right after Biomes. But we can start with a few obviously critical techs (medium Emitters are evil on DE's and as supplements on CR's, so LE's are a good early tech to grab) and see where we go from there.

It is nice that our second colony isn't a slouch.

ZedF
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RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by ZedF » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:59 pm

Guys, if you wouldn't mind a late entry, Johndunk has asked to be added to the roster. If that's ok with you, I can add him in the first post on the thread.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Torezu
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Torezu » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:57 pm

ZedF wrote:Guys, if you wouldn't mind a late entry, Johndunk has asked to be added to the roster.

Fine by me.

Spellman
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Spellman » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:09 pm

ZedF wrote:Re: naming conventions: I would suggest adding a speed indicator and version indicator in addition to the descriptive name.


IMO (mostly stolen from ZedF):
<Main Weapon>(<Secondary>) <Purpose/Main Module> <Speed>.<Version>

For example,
LE PDefl 9.03
is a Point Deflector with mainly Light Emitters, range 9, version 3, assume it has Armor as the main if we designate the command module (otherwise use AR, imo). Or
PD AS 5.01
Is Assault Shuttle with Point Defense, range 5, version 1.

We could also encode the ship class (DE, CR) in there as well if people want. And while creative names are nice for storytelling, I don't want to take my first 10-20 minutes cross-referencing the ship names with their loadouts when I inherit a save.

Also, yay adding people! Hi Johndunk.

Sounds like the first few techs are SA, LE, and starting Cruiser Tech, although obviously each player can ignore the council during their turns. LE aren't *great* as a PD stand-in, but they suffice until the Zuul start swinging ships completely speced for missiles, at which point we want real PD. Also, Deflectors will help mitigate the initial missile waves.

For longer range I'd say HCL and its derivatives in the Cruiser age. The Liir have great odds for all energy weapons and a little worse odds on average on the mass weaponry, so I'd say we stick mainly with beams as a good medium/longer range weapon and spread out later if we need to.

I'm cool with Torezu starting up.

Torezu
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Torezu » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:18 pm

Spellman wrote:IMO (mostly stolen from ZedF):
<Main Weapon>(<Secondary>) <Purpose/Main Module> <Speed>.<Version>

For example,
LE PDefl 9.03
is a Point Deflector with mainly Light Emitters, range 9, version 3, assume it has Armor as the main if we designate the command module (otherwise use AR, imo). Or
PD AS 5.01
Is Assault Shuttle with Point Defense, range 5, version 1.

We could also encode the ship class (DE, CR) in there as well if people want.

Sounds like the first few techs are SA, LE, and starting Cruiser Tech, although obviously each player can ignore the council during their turns. LE aren't *great* as a PD stand-in, but they suffice until the Zuul start swinging ships completely speced for missiles, at which point we want real PD. Also, Deflectors will help mitigate the initial missile waves.

This sounds good. The first couple designs I just use the defaults (like 'ER') because they're never going to be anything else, but a standard is good to have.

Spellman wrote:For longer range I'd say HCL and its derivatives in the Cruiser age. The Liir have great odds for all energy weapons and a little worse odds on average on the mass weaponry, so I'd say we stick mainly with beams as a good medium/longer range weapon and spread out later if we need to.

Absolutely. Unless the Zuul get Magno or above and we get nothing, Liir with Battle Bridges are scary good at killing Zuul CR's (and even DE's, with medium Emitters) without excessive (or sometimes any) casualties, especially with a good working knowledge of tactical retreats and some repair ships standing by.

Spellman wrote:I'm cool with Torezu starting up.

Thanks - if I don't get any objections, I'll start up after the kids are in bed tonight (give or take 9pm Mountain Time, which I think is GMT -7 right now).

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Red Spot
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Re: RBSotS1 SG4b

Post by Red Spot » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:51 pm

Naming I agree with, I have been doing so in my last game anyway (MASS Guard LRF -- AP Guard Fi -- AMC Guard AM -- etc (my guards are armors))
I do not see much use in putting the range in the name, you know how far engines go anyway, but I wont object to it :)
(I'd keep ships with same speeds in a fleet and not allow any slower ships in that fleet, if the 'range-nr' is important, I'd add it to the fleets name)

-----------

I'm ok with letting new players in, up to point that all current players have taken a turn, the more the merrier :)

-----------

Fighting the Zuul, and 5 of them, I suggest we keep a balanced tech-list. Getting to CRs but than neglecting to get CR-CnCs makes having CRs rather pointless (we'd just keep losing 2 CRs at a time). Seeing the Zuul are only normal players I wouldnt even be too forced to get trade early, with good expansion and preventing the Zuul to do the same in our area we should be able to outpass them without a trade-network early on. (pls do me a favour and not let our HW trade, I very much like being able to spew out offensive fleets from the, most likelly centrally located, HW)

About early expansion, set 4 scouts out and than turn up tech first. When we have a boost in our early ships, they tend to survive when they do hit foes. Better to keep your fleets alive and lose a single planet than keep the planet we cant yet colonise but spend a lot on replacements (get PD asap, Zuul will spam you with misl-ships early on, and possibly even at later stages .. yes we could use LE's, but I would sooner skip them, fighting the Zuul, and spend those few turns on say MD (Zuul are more armed at 1 side than the other, with MDs you can "forcefully turn them around", so they face you with their less armed side ;)).

----------

I'd suggest to just maintain the player-list as ZedF posted, unless someone likes an other place. If so, ask ZedF to update that list so you can always check who would be before you and we wouldnt have to keep telling/asking who is next :)


Disclaimer: what I say are at most suggestions, just to be clear on that :D

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