RBSotS1 SG12

Tactics and Action Reports.
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purplemarmot
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by purplemarmot » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:31 pm

Thanks for letting me join guys. :D Let me introduce myself. I've played SotS for several years, but I'm in the same boat as Summoner. For whatever reason, I haven't been motivated to play Zuul before. I discovered the SG TARs about two months ago and have read through over half of them and found them very informational (and entertaining). They also peaked my interest in playing Zuul. My style has also been more of a "turtle", too. I've played some games in the last 2 months trying to expand better and faster. I think I've done a good job in the beginning, but have had trouble sustaining pushes in the middle game...

I would second Summoner's request for reasoning in addition to reporting what was done/happened, as I haven't played Zuul before.

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Abyss
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by Abyss » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:19 am

I'll edit this post after I go eat. Sorry it took longer than the weekend, I had to prepare for a job interview. Save file is attached if you'd like to look around at our...interesting situation. In my current write up I only posted what I did, but I'll include my reasoning after the summary (hopefully I can remember it all, I did make a couple of minor errors).

T1: Queue up two armors (pebbles) and one tanker (pyro) at each base, go -14,600 but will be ok next turn. Research Waldos at 1% (834 turns, better get a breakthrough!)

T2: Send 1st Rip fleet to Volans, queue up another rip bore (ripper)

T3: Send 2nd Rip fleet to Talok, hope nothing happens there.

T4: From Talok there'll be two branches that we can go to, Procyon and Gotham. (Originally I had through three and had included Cargg in that mix before realizing that from our Home planet was another branch)

T5: Waiting, nothing to report, 2nd Rip Fleet ready to go.

T6: Nothing

T7: Rip Fleet 1 gets to Volans. Don't really need a 4th fleet like I thought and consolidate extra escorts into the first two fleets. Did not build the rip bore at the time, so it was ok.

T8: Nothing

T9: Talok is not hostile! But 439 CH, Size 6, Resources 3,344. We may have to colonize this one regardless. I send the other ships to the two branches.

T10: I put research to half strength. Queue up 20 colonizers for Talok, no ideal, but we'll starve without another planet.

T11: Send CZs on their way

T12: Send more CZs on their way.

T13: More of the same, queue up 4 more at Shamballa (home planet)

T14: Colonize Talok

T15: Oh boy, colony maintenance is a good chunk of our budget, overharvesting and setting Infra to 1 and Terraforming to 1.64. Rip fleet 3 idles while it waits for nodes to be bored.

T16: Land more colonists on Talok. Gotham has 1 Morrigi ship waiting, hopefully not a colony.

T17: Queue up 2 Tankers and colonizers in case Gotham is nice.

T18: Morrigi vessel easily dispatched, send Rip fleet 1 to Pylos, no reason to go down into a branch, we want the middle. Chiskatet is a possible destination for Rip fleet 3, but it could be Hiver owned and it's a long 16 turn journey and would take forever to get to, I wait for Rip fleet 2 to finish.

T19: Adjust Talok settings to 2 infra.

T20: Queue five armors each colony, send 5 to Talok for Randoms on Turn 25

T21: Procyon is CH 410, Size 7, 4,991 Resources. Better than Talok, but not by much. Send Rip fleet 1 to Izakis and Rip fleet 3 to Cargg.
Last edited by Abyss on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ivra
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by ivra » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:13 am

I have a question. I noticed that the Talok, the new colony, is set to mostly infrastructure. What is your reason for doing that? I normally set it to 99% terraforming until it is done. Isn't it much cheaper to get the CH down as quick as possible? Just like you, I set overharvesting to max for all developing colonies. In my games I leave the OH on max until CH=0, then I turn it off and let the colony grow infrastructure and people.

Having nothing better to colonize than Talok with CH=426 is not ideal. A tough start indeed.

And another question. What does GS stand for? Gun Ship? Just Curious.

I like your ship names. Especially Pebbles made me smile. :)
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

Zalzidrax
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by Zalzidrax » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:16 am

Just a thought - I'd put a stronger picket on Gotham than a single ER- it's got a ton of resources and is closer to the Morrigi's climate than ours. If I were playing the Morrigi, it would be high on my list of colonizabele worlds.

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Abyss
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by Abyss » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:10 pm

For such a high CH it's going to take quite a few turns of max OH to get it down, and OH benefits are based on how much infrastructure you have*. The more infra you obtain while building up the planet the easier it is to terraform without wasting so much resources*. If we can get infra to an acceptable level that gives good CH returns without so much OH we'll save a good bit of resources in the process. If you were to set terraforming to 90% and OH the rest it would be sub 2k resources by the time it was an acceptable planet. Hopefully with diligent watch and adjustment it can be in the high 2k resources when it reaches acceptable CH.

GS stands for Gauss, for the ships that their weapons mattered I put what weapons they are using as their main. It is similar to what we did in SG3b (a while ago, but I think we outlasted 3 other SGs). The naming standard is "custom name" "ship type" "main weapon" "speed.version": "Pebbles" "DE (destroyer)" "GS (Gauss)" "3.1".

We can certainly reinforce our picket if so desired, I just thought an ER might suffice for sensor purposes for now.

*Edit: Not true, a blunder on my part.
Last edited by Abyss on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ivra
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by ivra » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:58 pm

Abyss wrote:For such a high CH it's going to take quite a few turns of max OH to get it down, and OH benefits are based on how much infrastructure you have. The more infra you obtain while building up the planet the easier it is to terraform without wasting so much resources. If we can get infra to an acceptable level that gives good CH returns without so much OH we'll save a good bit of resources in the process. If you were to set terraforming to 90% and OH the rest it would be sub 2k resources by the time it was an acceptable planet. Hopefully with diligent watch and adjustment it can be in the high 2k resources when it reaches acceptable CH.

Cool! I didn't know that. But in a way I have not been punished too hard in my games since I tend to dump a lot of colonizers on high CH worlds in order to get the infra to at least 20. How high do you push infra before switching to terraforming? 50?
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Abyss
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by Abyss » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:15 pm

In recent games I tend to let infrastructure complete first, adjusting the OH so that I'm getting a good return for what resources I'm burning off. But once infrastructure is done you can terraform upwards of 130+ per turn, so there are some benefits to completing infra first. Since colonizers are cheap we can send more that way if necessary and dump more population there. I suggest we skip SA if we can due to our diminished research capability and the fact we'll need some sort of upgraded weapon against a more powerful foe(s).

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ivra
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by ivra » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:59 pm

This is what wiki says about overharvesting:

Industrial Output (IO) is the lynchpin of the SotS economy. Industrial Output points are used for two things: trade and construction. The construction cost of ships measures how much Industrial Output is required to build it. So a planet with 8,000 industrial output can build up to four destroyers with a construction cost of 2,000 in one turn. IO comes from 3 sources: Population, renewable (standard) harvesting, and overharvest:

IO = ( Population/500k + %INFRA*Resources + 10*OVERHARVEST ) * FACTORYBONUS

Every 500,000 people produce one point of IO. So you get 200 IO on a size–1 world, up to 2000 for a size–10 world.
With 100% Infrastructure, you'll get 1 IO for every point of Resources on the planet. With lower infrastructure, your IO will be proportionally lower.
Every Resource point you destroy with Overharvest will yield 10 IO. This does not depend on Infrastructure, which is why Overharvest is so good on newly colonized worlds. Normally, you can Overharvest no more than 2% of the Resources on a planet every turn. If you have Mega-Strip Mining, you can overharvest 10%. (!!)
FACTORYBONUS is a multiplier based on technology. Without any researched tech, it is equal to 100%.


According to wiki the IO you get from OH is not dependent on infrastructure, nor is it dependent on population. It is just 10 * OverharvestedResources * FactoryBonus.

I created a game to study how the terraforming/infrastructure setting affects the colony development when OH is set to max. To be able to compare the data fairly, I left OH on until both CH=0 and infra=100. No techs have been researched. The data is collected in the attached Excel file. The short version is:

Tirol, size 4, resources 7540, colonized by only 2 colonizers.
Approach 100/0: Resources spent on OH: 1148, Total cost: 219440.
Approach 0/100: Resources spent on OH: 1118, Total cost: 456396.
Approach 50/50: Resources spent on OH: 1095, Total cost: 314626.

Tully, size 5, resources 4406, colonized by 20 colonizers.
Approach 100/0: Resources spent on OH: 1005, Total cost: 133631.
Approach 0/100: Resources spent on OH: 980, Total cost: 424264.
Approach 50/50: Resources spent on OH: 928, Total cost: 271778.

OH.zip


My findings are:
  • The amount of resources that can be overharvested depends on the imperial population. It maxes out to 2% of the resources when the imperial population reaches 100000.
  • Setting the sliders to 100% terraforming and 0% infrastructure (100/0) is the cheapest approach. It burns just a little more resources (up to 5% more) than the other approaches. It also is the approach that grows the imperial population quickest.
  • Setting the sliders to 0% terraforming and 100% infrastructure (0/100) is the by far most expensive approach. It can be as much as 3 times as expensive. It is the approach that grows the imperial population slowest, losing 3 to 4 turns to the 100/0 approach.
  • Not adjusting the sliders (50/50) is the approach that uses the least resources. It is about 1.5 to 2 times as expensive as the 100/0 approach.

Conclusions:
Set OH to max and move the slider to 100% terraforming. Keep the colony at this setting until CH=0. Then turn off OH. This is the approach I have always used, and it seems it is the best approach after all.

@Abyss: I think you overestimate the amount of resources that are used to terraform a colony down to CH=0 before focusing on infrastructure.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Abyss
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by Abyss » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:32 pm

Alright, perhaps I was mistaken. I used to favor terraforming over infrastructure, but somewhere along the lines I switched, maybe after playing different races. You did the research, though, so we'll follow your findings.

Edit: I think I followed planet development for Liir too much like the Zuul in a past SG game and was encouraged to try a more balanced approach towards infrastructure. Those principles must have sneaked into my recent Zuul games after not playing for a while. Apologies about the OH blunder, I should probably have looked it up, I did know it was affected by population but I may have forgotten that as well. Don't worry, I still win Zuul games!

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ivra
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by ivra » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:22 pm

Abyss wrote:Alright, perhaps I was mistaken. I used to favor terraforming over infrastructure, but somewhere along the lines I switched, maybe after playing different races. You did the research, though, so we'll follow your findings.

Edit: I think I followed planet development for Liir too much like the Zuul in a past SG game and was encouraged to try a more balanced approach towards infrastructure. Those principles must have sneaked into my recent Zuul games after not playing for a while. Apologies about the OH blunder, I should probably have looked it up, I did know it was affected by population but I may have forgotten that as well.

For all other races a balanced approach is the best. More specifically, it is about having enough infrastructure to prevent the IO number from getting red. The best approach is to have just a little more infrastructure than is needed by the imperial population. I think the formula is NeededPop = Infra^3 * 100.

Abyss wrote:Don't worry, I still win Zuul games!

:lol:
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

ZedF
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by ZedF » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:13 pm

ivra wrote:For all other races a balanced approach is the best. More specifically, it is about having enough infrastructure to prevent the IO number from getting red. The best approach is to have just a little more infrastructure than is needed by the imperial population. I think the formula is NeededPop = Infra^3 * 100.

I suspect (but have not tested) that this still holds true for Zuul, but Zuul using overharvesting have a balance point that is much closer to the terraforming end of the scale than would otherwise be the case, simply because your I/O is so much higher than most new colonies can manage -- at least without involving a lot of biome colonizers, anyway.

So I would say you would likely still want to observe the "have about as much infra as your population can work" principle, but that this probably means setting the sliders closer to 90/10 or 80/20 than to 50/50, at least while overharvesting.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Summoner
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by Summoner » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:36 am

T21: Adjust Talok spending based on Ivra's testing. Land additional colonizers on Talok.

T22: Land more colonizers on Talok.

Don't build anything else since we're too poor to keep ships sitting around idle; and can't afford to colonize a second hell world. Counting the last group in transit we'll have had 30+ colonizers land; from the human SG a few months back that's hitting diminishing returns fairly hard so not any point in sending more out.

T24 Land final colonists on Talok. Talok drops below 400CH and is gaining at 16/turn.

IT: Pylos; encounter a single tarka DE. This was a disaster; it killed both damaged armors before getting caught in the tanker explosion.

T25 The bore survived Pylos with ~10% damage; but without any remaining escorts I'm pulling it back to Gotham; and will have fresh escorts meet it there.

Pylos is C275. In addition to a new escort fleet for the bore, I begin building a colony fleet for Pylos.

T26: Spot a tarka DE at Procyon; a rip fleet will be transiting there next turn; hopefully I have better luck than last time.

T27: A Liir DE will be joining the Procyon party too. Joy!

IT: Procyon: The Liir launches a missile at us. No sign of the tarka at the start; but it quickly races in to join the party. I end up losing 2/3 armors and 1/2 tankers (snafu; I sent 1 tanker and 1 armor running instead of both of the former) in the last 10 seconds of the battle; while inflicting less than 300 damage on the enemy. No idea what happened; my ships were shooting but apparently never managed to hit anything.

T28: Izakis has a hiver gate, and 36 defenders. Going to try running but will probably lose everything there.

IT: Izakis now has 37 hiver DEs. THe hivers never left orbit (their gate?); and we were able to retreat down the borehole before any planet missiles got out that far.

T29: Izakis is a size 5 hiver starting colony. Under the circumstance I'll settle for an ignominious retreat.

T30: Don't start any additional ship building.

Final thoughts: Talok is down to CH233, and improving at 28/turn. OH is currently costing 66 resources, while the colony drains our treasury buy 25k.

I've got a dozen and a half colonizers + escorts staging to Talok to colonize Pylos. I forgot to put any tankers in the initial part of the build. Either you'll have to delay the first wave's departure from next turn to 3 turns from now, or leave one of the two tankers heading to the bore at Gotham behind as a refueling post instead of sending it out to rip new lines.

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Gryfalcon
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by Gryfalcon » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:41 am

Am I up next, or is it purplemarmot?
Summer grasses:
all that remain of great soldiers’
imperial dreams - Basho

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ivra
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by ivra » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:04 am

Summoner wrote:No idea what happened; my ships were shooting but apparently never managed to hit anything.

I suspect using Auto Resolve (AR) will improve the outcome a lot. It seems that AR does not care too much about accuracy, but focus a lot on damage. I have noticed the difference especially when fighting swarms. If I use 10 armors with gauss cannons and do it manually, I always lose. If I do it using AR I normally win. Put in another 5 and it is a guaranteed victory when using AR. When fighting an incoming silicoid queen, the same principle is true, but I believe that at least 25 armors should be present at the colony.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

ZedF
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Re: RBSotS1 SG12

Post by ZedF » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:45 am

When fighting swarms using AR you want a mix of red lasers and gauss cannons for best performance and the fewest losses. Red lasers are much better at taking out the swarmers themselves while gauss are better for the hive and any larva that should pop out.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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