SG - New Interest

Tactics and Action Reports.
Post Reply
ZedF
Board Ninja
Board Ninja
Posts: 12581
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:13 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by ZedF » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:15 am

skibum157 wrote:Well I'm definitely learning a lot from this game which is great. Sorry about the premature war fleet. I should have realized that I could and should have waited for better techs especially since the hivers have no chance of launching a surprise attack with their speed or lack thereof. As far as plasma cannons go, I didn't actually know they we're that bad, so that's good to know. Are mass drivers generally the better choice?

Mass drivers are considerably better than plasma cannon, so long as you bear in mind they are still early fission weapons and set your expectations accordingly. In the early fission era, mass drivers cost the same to research as plasma cannon, but:
- do considerably more damage per hit
- fire more frequently
- gain passive buffs from all techs that benefit ballistics (most particularly for the fission era, VRF)
- cost far less per mount to equip (plasma cannon are one of the most expensive early-game weapons to use)
- give a much more substantial HP buff to the equipping ship per mount

The downsides are they are slightly less accurate than plasma cannons, and they can be deflected by metal armour; however, you need to be up against some pretty heavy armour before plasma will outperform mass drivers. I once had a game as Zuul where I missed out on a lot of links to more advanced weapons, and wound up with nothing available to use other than plasma cannon and mass drivers for a relatively long time. Here is a topic where I posted some battle results for that game: against enemies with polysilicate and reflective armour, mass drivers and plasma cannon performed comparably in battle, but the mass driver ships were far cheaper and significantly more resilient.

Of course there are other options available. If you're still in the early fission era, you could use dual UV lasers, which will work considerably better than plasma cannon, providing your enemy isn't too reflective. Dual light emitters is also superior to plasma cannon, but they tend to work better when mounted on destroyers and not cruisers, as you need the nimbleness to be able to bunch up into a really tight formation for maximum concentration of fire. Cruisers can't bunch up as effectively and are considerably less nimble, which is a problem when using the very short-ranged light emitters. Particle beams are pretty decent as large mount turret weapons, but most cruisers rely more on medium mounts than on large mounts so you don't tend to be able to rely entirely on them.

Getting a little bit higher-tech, AP drivers are a solid all-around weapon that works well in the fission and fusion eras, and if you get neutronium in your tree, even into the AM era. Medium emitters do for cruisers what light emitters do for destroyers. Stormers are sometimes an interesting choice, as they do a very high amount of DPS against soft targets, but are easily defeated by even basic armour techs. DF racks are another possibility once you are approaching or in the fusion era; I tend to find they aren't very useful prior to Fusion Warheads, but they will upgrade for free to use better warheads as you research them. And of course the better the engine tech you have, the more options open up.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

User avatar
ivra
Posts: 1346
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:33 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by ivra » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:53 am

ZedF wrote:We appear to have a lot of tanker pickets named, simply, 'T'.

That's my doing. I saw a lot of tankers without a name and I got lazy and called them simply T. That is enough to at least see that it is a tanker that is garrisoned at a system.
Eventually, I just let them guard a rock since the need for them was gradually reduced.

ZedF wrote:Firstly, I redesign our biome colonizer to use emitters. There is no point in using DD colonizers to have a source of emitters, and gauss-only biomes, when biomes are far more efficient at colonizing; we waste a lot more time and money building the DD colonizers than we save on weapons cost on the biomes. I would rather just build biomes with emitters and skip the DD colonizers altogether, except where we can't build biomes at all due to lack of civilian population.

Yep, that's the other approach. I am so used to first sending a colonizer and its garrison fleet, that I do it the entire game. Maybe it is not as efficient. The point is to be able to handle the colony traps. Biomes with gauss cannons cannot handle them. As long as colony traps are taken into considerations, I think both approaches are valid. It's just a matter of habits.


ZedF wrote:Regarding our military expenditures, I feel that the construction of the anti-hiver fleet was premature. We researched plasma cannon and fitted a bunch of cruisers with plasma cannons and missiles to throw at the hivers, but plasma cannons are pretty horrible weapons and we have no missile upgrades to make missiles useful for anything. Not to mention our lack of anything resembling armour, and only emitters for point defense. These ships are just expensive paperweights as far as I am concerned; it would have been a lot better to wait for Antimatter and several other useful war techs to come in before building a cruiser-based navy. Emitter destroyer squadrons for each of the arms would have been a better military investment.

A bit harsh, but I agree with what you say.
As to a use of the fleet I have one idea. Hivers tend to mass a huge defense if they see a large incoming fleet. This fleet can be used as a decoy where we make sure that the hivers see it coming. The same turn that this fleet arrives at a colony (and will be utterly destroyed) we arrive with AM fleets at other colonies (with no warning to the hivers) and hopefully those other colonies will have almost no defenses.


ZedF wrote:Of course, Deep Scan would be even more useful in that respect.

I would put that high up on our research list. It is very useful to see what our enemies are doing, and it is very useful to have in our combat fleets. I normally put them on the CnC ships.


ZedF wrote:Otherwise, we're now in a good position to start thinking about war technologies so we can build powerful fleets to blitz each arm. We have lots of options in this regard, but we do need to pick an initial weapon to use. AP drivers are available; we don't know yet about neutronium or impactors. Fusion cannon are available; we don't yet know about AM cannon.

I suggest we do both :) In the short term I suggest we research AP drivers and maybe even heavy mass drivers and build our first combat fleets with them. For long term weapons I suggest we research fusion cannons to see if we get AM cannons. I believe AM cannons are the best medium weapon in the game. I also like heavy AM cannons more that Meson beams since Meson beams will destroy colonies and since I tend to forget to turn them off when bombarding the colony. As mentioned, Impactors are brilliant. We should also see if we have cutting beams, and we need some kind of torpedoes. I suggest we research Photonic torpedoes to see if we have access to some of the fancy rapid-fire torpedoes. If I have access to everything, I prefer PD phasers, AM cannons, Chakrams, Cutting beams, Kelvinic torpedoes, and Interceptors.


ZedF wrote:There is one other possible approach if we want to try to speed things up, and that's using xenotech. We could try to focus on mainly defending from this point out while we fill out our megafreighter networks, backfill our colony prospects, and pick up a bunch of xenotech, with the intention of forcing other races to surrender by virtue of having 10x as many colonies as anyone else. This would save on having to fight quite so many battles every turn.

I am ok with this approach.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

kjn
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:38 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by kjn » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:22 pm

Slow going here, and I've focused on backfilling techs and growing our economy. We do have Deep Scan, Data Correlation, and Fusion warheads now.

As for the DS sections, I don't like to put them on the CnC ship - it makes them too fragile. I prefer to put them on refinieries (for the strategic coverage), and then on destroyers for tactical, usually on Jammer, PD, or Armor ships.

ZedF
Board Ninja
Board Ninja
Posts: 12581
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:13 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by ZedF » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:15 pm

For me, whether I put the scan on the CnC or not depends on the primary weapons I am using. For fleets intended to fight at as long range as possible, e.g. Drones or Impactors, I will strongly consider putting Deep Scan on the CnC to maximize the effective range from which I can fight and, with Advanced CnC, target enemies from the sensors screen. In these cases the durability of the CnC is not so much an issue; ideally the enemy should not be getting close enough to return fire. Tactical speed with which to kite might, in some cases, be another matter.

If my fleet and hence my CnC is intended to get up close and personal, then I will avoid putting the deep scan on the CnC and will instead drop it on a combat support destroyer frame, as kjn mentioned. You get less range on the scanner this way and you need some outnumbering bonus or combat algorithms to prevent it from costing you a cruiser, but if you're fighting at close range and trading blows, then CnC firepower and survivability is important.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

kjn
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:38 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by kjn » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:52 pm

Turns 90 to 100

Not a very active turnset, main focus has been to expand our trade network significantly (it's almost tripled in revenue from T90 to T100) and backfill a lot of useful techs. We have plenty of new colonies, but most of them were set up during ZedF's turnset; all I've had to do was land the biomes. So we've had lots of vertical expansion (trade and settling backline worlds) but hardly any horizontal.

T90: The main change I did from ZedF's plans for T90 was to cancel the biome builds at Jophisea, since I wanted to build up the civilian population there. Instead, Brmboleu got biome duty for that sector. It's not as well placed, but can still easily build 3 biomes per turn.

I also send our two plasma cruiser fleets to Narvath and Inane (Kyzan hive). I don't expect them to do much, but I can try to keep them off-balance and do some aggressive scouting. They are too weak for a major fleet battle, too slow for deep raiding, and lack the right weapon mix for a planetary assault.

Lots of freighters ordered, I spend most credits there on every turn during the turnset.

Interturn: lots of combats, mostly scout battles, but also handle two colony traps. At Inane and Narvath our plasma cruisers show they're too fragile. At Inane they beat 18 DEs and 1 CR but all the ships are pretty beat up. At Narvath they meet 16 DEs, 4 CRs (including CR CnC), and a mature Hiver colony. The fleet manage to destroy the Hiver fleet, but at a loss of 6 BattleCRs, and the fleet was not strong enough to approach the colony.

T91: We get the Arclight special project (turned out to be Recombinant Fissionables), and control over the Asteroid Monitor at Centhegr, and some biomes are sent that way.

Interturn: again lots of combats, plenty of them scout battles over empty worlds. At several of them I use my trick of targeting the enemy engines and evading combat once the engines have been destroyed. We also defeat the almost stripped derelict at Tolaran.

T92: The Tarka manage to gain control over the Asteroid Monitor at Ulael.

Interturn: Nothing special.

T93: Not much happening.

Interturn: We lose the new colony at Ussurum. The Tarka CRs are all equipped with battle bridges (4 biome and 1 refinery), and lots of the DEs go up with the refinery blast. Then the colony is destroyed by missiles before I can get some ships to stop them or peace out of the combat. :( I retreat the remains of the squadron there (mainly support units), and the Vaano Tarka claim the world.

T94: We have the Xerxes asteroid monitor; biomes sent. I also start to prepare Iruuna for the approaching silicoid queen.

Interturn: Encounter a mature Liir colony at Luurwuni that destroy our scout before it can retreat. Manage to scout Vodran, and win against the Morrigi at Toloran.

T95: Order a bunch of ScanER DEs, 1 for each arm (though come to think of it ScanER CRs might have been better for greater strategic range). The Imperial Armada takes control over the Asteroid Monitor at Zediaeus.

Interturn: Nothing special.

T96: Design two interim cruisers, all APMDs and light emitters, and build a few for the Morrigi front. See notes below.

Interturn: Defeat the silicoid queen at Iruuna, and defeat some Morrigi DEs and a VN probe (killing only the little stuff).

T97: Gain control over Asteroid Monitors at Lawrence and Mikus; ordering up some biomes.

Interturn: Defeat Tarka ER DE at Tashtor Seneca.

T98: Heavy Drivers come in early, and we have both Shield Breakers, Neutronium, and Accelerator Amplification (Impactors) in our tree.

Interturn: Defeat Hiver gate group at Poprs and some scouts.

T99: HCLs in, and we have access to lancers. Design a new set of cruisers, with battle bridges, heavy AP drivers, and so on.

Interturn: Nothing special

T100: Nothing special.

Overall notes and recommendations

The research during the turnset was Integrated Sensors -> Advanced Sensors -> Data Correlation -> Fusion Warhead -> AP Rounds -> VRF Tech -> PD -> Heavy Drivers -> HCLs -> Green, all of them 1-turned at circa 40% research (with some luck). Almost all the surplus credit was spent on mega-freighters, and opening up plenty of new trade routes.

In the Morrigi arm we have a set of interim cruisers, APArmorCA 01 and APCnCCA 01, but I'd recommend going ahead with building APArmorCA 13.02 and APCnCCA 13.02, which is the most recent designs with Battle Bridges, HCL, heavy AP drivers, and PD. These are workhorse designs suitable for most missions. Take care against the Kyzan hivers (quark armour) and the Imperial Armada (deflectors), though.

We have a single biome at Gorbah that should be sent to Polarissima, where we have hacked the Asteroid Monitor.

The Ferguson project is hopefully magnoceramics, but it can also be reflectives, disruptor torpedo, or plasma focusing.

Right now we have a huge stash of money that can be spent on things. I'd sink 4-5 megacredits on more freighters, but there's still plenty for one or two CR battlegroups. The Vaanu Tarka (arm 7) should probably be the goal of one of those groups, we're quite weak on defenders there.

User avatar
acastus
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:36 am

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by acastus » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:44 pm

ZedF wrote:There is one other possible approach if we want to try to speed things up, and that's using xenotech. We could try to focus on mainly defending from this point out while we fill out our megafreighter networks, backfill our colony prospects, and pick up a bunch of xenotech, with the intention of forcing other races to surrender by virtue of having 10x as many colonies as anyone else. This would save on having to fight quite so many battles every turn.

Using xenotechs to force surrender is out of bounds for this game. I will take the next turn set now.

ZedF
Board Ninja
Board Ninja
Posts: 12581
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:13 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by ZedF » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:38 pm

kjn wrote:I also send our two plasma cruiser fleets to Narvath and Inane (Kyzan hive). I don't expect them to do much, but I can try to keep them off-balance and do some aggressive scouting. They are too weak for a major fleet battle, too slow for deep raiding, and lack the right weapon mix for a planetary assault.

Looking at the save, I notice we have a couple largish fleets incoming on the Arm 2 Hiver front. Ordinarily I would want to get rid of these cruisers since they are just eating maintenance costs every turn, but our income is already pretty ridiculous (well north of $10M) and is only set to grow more as we continue to settle backline worlds and build freighters. So, I dunno, use them for outnumbering bonus? Seems weak, but the alternative is to scrap them and build something better with the bonus I/O. Or send them on repeated suicide charges until they are gone. :)

Interturn: We lose the new colony at Ussurum. The Tarka CRs are all equipped with battle bridges (4 biome and 1 refinery), and lots of the DEs go up with the refinery blast. Then the colony is destroyed by missiles before I can get some ships to stop them or peace out of the combat. :( I retreat the remains of the squadron there (mainly support units), and the Vaano Tarka claim the world.

I definitely want that world back, we were there first. :x We'll certainly want to build a stronger offensive fleet for this front, and not just for defensive purposes. AP drivers should do a good job of that, though.

Too bad about the refinery -- they are definitely one of the things that are tricky to handle with an all-emitter destroyer fleet. You have to be pretty careful with your micro (using fire only at my target and hold fire when necessary) to first pop either the nose or the tail, then hold fire while most of the fleet moves off, then hit the main section with just a couple DDs. Not something you can easily do in a furball, or without some precision maneuvering and probably liberal use of the pause key. Even then it requires some practice to get a feel for how much emitter goodness a refinery nose section can take without also popping the main section.

T95: Order a bunch of ScanER DEs, 1 for each arm (though come to think of it ScanER CRs might have been better for greater strategic range).

We can definitely use one of these DDs at every colony that's adjacent to our rivals' holdings, and that's just as a starting point. I often plop one into the garrison for all my worlds as a preventative measure -- you never know when a rival will send a long-distance fleet between arms, for instance. Even slowboating scanners out into the gaps between major star groupings can be a good idea, though in this case we'd have to send them pretty much everywhere, so there might be too much empty space on this map for that idea to be practical.

The research during the turnset was Integrated Sensors -> Advanced Sensors -> Data Correlation -> Fusion Warhead -> AP Rounds -> VRF Tech -> PD -> Heavy Drivers -> HCLs -> Green, all of them 1-turned at circa 40% research (with some luck). Almost all the surplus credit was spent on mega-freighters, and opening up plenty of new trade routes.

Sounds good. What was the motivation was to climb the laser tree? Mainly to counter deflectors?

At this point I would be tempted to grab Accelerator Amplification, Neutronium Rounds, and Advanced CnC, and rock some Impactors for a while -- that will help offset our lack of armour for brawling. We might not have Fire Control for uber-sniping, but put on a Battle Bridge and we still have enough punch to brawl fairly effectively if bad guys do manage to get close. Even if we just get Neutronium, that's a serious buff for our drivers.

The Ferguson project is hopefully magnoceramics, but it can also be reflectives, disruptor torpedo, or plasma focusing.

Are you sure about the torpedo and plasma focusing? Ferguson project is supposed to be an industrial tech, which would exclude those.

Right now we have a huge stash of money that can be spent on things. I'd sink 4-5 megacredits on more freighters, but there's still plenty for one or two CR battlegroups. The Vaanu Tarka (arm 7) should probably be the goal of one of those groups, we're quite weak on defenders there.

We could easily afford to build a moderate-sized cruiser battlegroup for each arm at this point. Since we are starting to see enemy attack groups encroaching on our territory in the Hiver arms, I think we should expect this in the other arms as well, so it seems like a good time to beef up our military in general.

Acastus wrote:Using xenotechs to force surrender is out of bounds for this game. I will take the next turn set now.
You really want to slog out every single turn of combat from here to the end in an obviously won game? If so, more power to you, I guess. What was your motivation for adding this rule, anyway? If it was supposed to be to add challenge, it's not going to accomplish that aim.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

User avatar
acastus
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:36 am

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by acastus » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:38 am

T100: Research Neutronium Rounds.

T101: Completed Neutronium Rounds. Research Combat Algorithms.

T102: Completed Combat Algorithms. Research Holographic Tactics.
Defended Mikus against a Tarka scout.
Defended Setlik against Hiver CR+DE gate fleet.

T103: Completed Holographic Tactics. Research Orbital Drydocks and special project Capek's Legions. Colonized Inner Rim, Chako, Zubeneschemali and Lawrence.

T104: Completed Orbital Drydocks. Research Heavy Platforms. Colonized Leporis.

T105: Completed Heavy Platforms.

I mainly built CR attack and support ships in each of the arms and pushed them up to the front lines. I like putting 20 DE tankers in attack fleets to maximize the command point bonus and provide extra range. I think we can focus on the weakest AI and take out their arm with two or three attack fleets while holding the other AIs at bay. Once the AI first falls it will be a domino effect to knock over the others.

kjn
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:38 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by kjn » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:02 am

1. The goal of the green lasers was mainly that it was a guaranteed 1-turn tech. I imagine we might want to push for pulse phasers and phaser PD later on, so it's not wholly wasted. But yes, I agree with picking up the late-game ballistic techs now - they will help our existing designs a lot.

2. One of the plasma cruiser fleets is pretty much gutted. I'd probably split up the combat units and make two weak fleets to help defend the frontier, but they're pretty worthless.

3. That refinery blast was nasty - it appeared as a reinforcement right on top of me.

4. A decent cruiser squadron (2 CNC, 6 armors, 1 repair, 1 scan-refinery, and some DEs for PD and tactical scan) cost about 2M credits, so we can easily afford ordering one each turn.

5. Not sure I like stuffing our fleets with tankers. I'd rather have assault shuttle carriers. The tankers go to diminishing returns pretty quickly, since they will be emptied out so quickly.

skibum157
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:58 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by skibum157 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:18 am

Haha well maybe we can think of the alliance first fleet as a poorly planned first military endeavor of human empire new to space warfare. A painful lesson, but humanity has to start somewhere.

ZedF
Board Ninja
Board Ninja
Posts: 12581
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:13 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by ZedF » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:59 am

acastus wrote:T104: Completed Orbital Drydocks. Research Heavy Platforms. Colonized Leporis.

T105: Completed Heavy Platforms.

What's the intention here, to head toward DN construction or stations? Regarding DN construction, I think I would prefer to wait until we have some better armour before building any combat DNs, since DNs are hard to withdraw from combat and hard to protect with shields. We could still profit from Armada CnC, though, if that was the intention.

kjn wrote:5. Not sure I like stuffing our fleets with tankers. I'd rather have assault shuttle carriers. The tankers go to diminishing returns pretty quickly, since they will be emptied out so quickly.

I have to agree with this, I could make a lot more use out of 20 shuttle DDs than 20 tanker DDs.

skibum157 wrote:Haha well maybe we can think of the alliance first fleet as a poorly planned first military endeavor of human empire new to space warfare. A painful lesson, but humanity has to start somewhere.

Not to worry skibum! You are still learning, so it's all good. :)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

kjn
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:38 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by kjn » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:59 pm

Any interest in continuing? I haven't seen anyone claiming the save yet (no, I don't do so right now - am quite busy over the next days).

Some thoughts on the current state of the game.

What about naming the arms after colours instead of numbers? I have a hard time keeping track of them right now. Then we'd get:

  • Orange (Kyzan Hiver)
  • Yellow (Imperial Hiver)
  • Dark Blue (Liir)
  • Light green (Imperial Tarka)
  • Red (Zuul)
  • Light blue (Morrigi)
  • Dark green (Vaanu Tarka)
  • Purple (our arm)

We have a surplus of freighters in some trade sectors (like 1 and 3), where we can either send off some DE freighters for scrapping or some other sector (probably not practical on this map). Some sectors has enough freighters to open some more routes (like 2 and 6).

Make sure to colonise Polarissima. We have a biome ready at Gorbah, and enough ships in the area to easily defend the colony.

Not sure I like the Scan-CnC cruisers, since we currently have brawler fleets. I also think our fleet mix is unbalanced, lets take ARM 2-01 as the example (on the Hiver front).

Right now the fleet has 11 APArmorCA, 2 CnCScan, 2 RefineCA, 3 RepairCA, and about 20 TankerDD. It also has 7 more APArmorCA on the way, for a total of 18.

If the fleet is to be used defensively, it's far too strong; we've over-invested in resources. If it's to be used for raiding and parallell operations, it doesn't have enough CnCScan's to lead several different fleets, and it lacks the assault shuttle carriers to easily glass mature colonies. If it's to be used for major fleet actions, it has too few and too vulnerable CnC ships. It is also weak against missiles; this won't be a problem against the Hivers but will be against the Tarka and the Morrigi who have AM warheads.

I like to use formations similar to the one in APCruiser Fleet A7.13.01 (in the Morrigi arm) with humans, mix in the cruisers with some destroyers to bolster the PD fire and provide specialist functions (tactical DS, jamming, or WW duty). For defense, the fleet could look like this:

1 BB-CnC CR (1 in tactical)
6 BB-Armor CR (5 in tactical)
4-5 RPointDef DE (3 in tactical)
1-2 ScanRPointDef DE (1 in tactical)
1 ScanRefine CR
1-2 Repair CR

For going raiding or assaults against minor opposition, add 10-20 assault shuttle carriers, probably another ScanRefine, and maybe another BB-CnC. For major fleet actions, two or more of these can be combined.

(Why do I put the DS sections where I do? CR DS has only an advantage in range in the strategic view for the Humans (and Tarka), and the refineries are those of my ships that tends up to be most scattered around and on detached duty, adding the DS section makes sure the ship can fill two useful purposes with a single design. In tactical, I like having them on a DE, usually with a jammer or PD mission section. It is easier to retreat, and not as much of a target.)

Now, there are lots of ways to build good fleets, especially once one adds formations, but simply adding more ships quickly goes into diminishing returns, since there is no way to use all of them effectively.

skibum157
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:58 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by skibum157 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:25 pm

I have a test friday so I've been studying this week but I could take another turnset sometime this weekend for sure.

If as we continue people start losing interest in this SG because its too easy I'd be up to start another one with a more challenging setup if there's a desire.
Though I also have no problem with continuing this one.
I just have a blast playing with other people and its a great way for me to learn

User avatar
acastus
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:36 am

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by acastus » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:44 pm

ZedF wrote:What's the intention here, to head toward DN construction or stations? Regarding DN construction, I think I would prefer to wait until we have some better armour before building any combat DNs, since DNs are hard to withdraw from combat and hard to protect with shields. We could still profit from Armada CnC, though, if that was the intention.

I have to agree with this, I could make a lot more use out of 20 shuttle DDs than 20 tanker DDs.

I went for Orbital Drydocks and Heavy Platforms just for the bonuses that they provide. No intention going for DNs. I would try for Gravity Control next.

When I reach a point in the game where I can field large fleets of CRs I auto-resolve most of the combats so anything other than tanker DEs is just a drain on fuel. I just bounce from one planet to the next destroying the AI colonies. Having the right weapons and using AR just does far more damage than I can get manually. I do manual combat for well defended colonies where the AR does a terrible job. In those cases I try to maximize the command point bonus so I can field 10-12 CRs + CNC. Even if my ships are weaker the combined firepower usually overwhelms the handful of AI ships in each wave. And I want CRs, not DEs, in that situation. Just my style of play...

Anyone can continue on at this point. Otherwise, I can pick it up again on Friday.

ZedF
Board Ninja
Board Ninja
Posts: 12581
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:13 pm

Re: SG - New Interest

Post by ZedF » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:18 pm

kjn wrote:Any interest in continuing? I haven't seen anyone claiming the save yet (no, I don't do so right now - am quite busy over the next days).

I doubt I will be able to get this prior to the weekend, though there is a small chance it could be possible. Ivra has not taken a turn all that recently so he might be able to.

What about naming the arms after colours instead of numbers? I have a hard time keeping track of them right now. Then we'd get:

  • Orange (Kyzan Hiver)
  • Yellow (Imperial Hiver)
  • Dark Blue (Liir)
  • Light green (Imperial Tarka)
  • Red (Zuul)
  • Light blue (Morrigi)
  • Dark green (Vaanu Tarka)
  • Purple (our arm)

I don't mind incorporating colours as well as numbers in our fleet names, so long as we keep the colour abbreviations short. Where we currently have fleets like A#.<speed>.<number> we could instead have <colour abbrev>#.<speed>.<number>, and so forth around the ring, matching the relevant colours to the arm numbers. That way people could use whatever they are more comfortable with when writing written descriptions for TAR purposes. We'd then have something like:

Code: Select all

    Pu1  Or2  Ye3  DB4  LG5  Re6  LB7  DG8

as our initial fleet prefixes. That would give both the colour (visual reference) and the arm number (spatial reference) in the same prefix.


Not sure I like the Scan-CnC cruisers, since we currently have brawler fleets.

I think we are on track to be fielding Armada CnC soonish (though I still think Accelerator Amplification might be a good idea prior to that) so this may soon be moot. But whoever's next can certainly design a more brawling-oriented CnC if they are so inclined.

I also think our fleet mix is unbalanced, lets take ARM 2-01 as the example (on the Hiver front).

Right now the fleet has 11 APArmorCA, 2 CnCScan, 2 RefineCA, 3 RepairCA, and about 20 TankerDD. It also has 7 more APArmorCA on the way, for a total of 18.

If the fleet is to be used defensively, it's far too strong; we've over-invested in resources. If it's to be used for raiding and parallell operations, it doesn't have enough CnCScan's to lead several different fleets, and it lacks the assault shuttle carriers to easily glass mature colonies. If it's to be used for major fleet actions, it has too few and too vulnerable CnC ships. It is also weak against missiles; this won't be a problem against the Hivers but will be against the Tarka and the Morrigi who have AM warheads.

I definitely like to be able to split large fleets into multiple smaller fleets for parallel operations. I usually have a balance of about 50% combat cruisers and 50% CnC/Repair/Refinery/support cruisers (including Biomes) overall on any given front, split up between however many fleets, with about 6-10 combat cruisers per fleet (allowing for outnumbering reinforcements and enough spares to soak a few casualties). With 18 combat cruisers as described above I would certainly want enough support ships to be able to field 2 fleets of 9 combat cruisers each, or even 3 if I were really confident in my tech edge and anticipated no casualties at all.

I like to use formations similar to the one in APCruiser Fleet A7.13.01 (in the Morrigi arm) with humans, mix in the cruisers with some destroyers to bolster the PD fire and provide specialist functions (tactical DS, jamming, or WW duty). For defense, the fleet could look like this:

1 BB-CnC CR (1 in tactical)
6 BB-Armor CR (5 in tactical)
4-5 RPointDef DE (3 in tactical)
1-2 ScanRPointDef DE (1 in tactical)
1 ScanRefine CR
1-2 Repair CR

For going raiding or assaults against minor opposition, add 10-20 assault shuttle carriers, probably another ScanRefine, and maybe another BB-CnC. For major fleet actions, two or more of these can be combined.

I would probably make that 2-3 repair cruisers, depending on my armour level (more armour = can absorb more punishment without dying = need more repair) but otherwise that sounds reasonable. I might omit the point defense destroyers, depending on race and how confident I am in my PD. For instance, I am more likely to include PD destroyers as humans if running War cruisers than Armour cruisers; I find the Armour cruisers usually have sufficient PD as long as you don't move too quickly with them so that planet missiles fall behind their PD arcs.

Now, there are lots of ways to build good fleets, especially once one adds formations, but simply adding more ships quickly goes into diminishing returns, since there is no way to use all of them effectively.

Agreed 100% -- this is why being able to split large fleets into multiple smaller ones for parallel operations (or combine two smaller fleets' efforts to crack a tough nut where you anticipate several casualties and/or need to counter enemy outnumbering bonus) is an important capability to have.

acastus wrote:I went for Orbital Drydocks and Heavy Platforms just for the bonuses that they provide. No intention going for DNs. I would try for Gravity Control next.

I see. Personally, as I mentioned earlier, once you get up to this tech level I tend to find these incremental bonuses matter less than what you can actually field. There are a couple key differences between a tech like Heavy Platforms (60k RP, +10% I/O) and early industry techs like Waldos (5k RP, +15% I/O, -10% ship I/O cost), Cyber Interfaces (12k RP, +20% I/O, -5% ship I/O cost), and Expert Systems (16k RP, +15% I/O, -10% ship I/O cost). Firstly, with the latter, you are spending a lot less raw income to get the tech, and get a much larger economic benefit out of it, so your bang per buck is far superior. Secondly, the timing of when you are able to get these techs is important as well; with the latter techs you are typically getting them while you are still colonizing a lot of worlds so the improvement in I/O is a direct boost to your ability to grow your income, whereas a tech like Heavy Platforms comes late enough in the game that it really is only able to provide a small aid to warship production, after your economy is already in good shape.

Gravity Control gives a nice bonus... for DN construction. You don't really need it prior to that; we can already build cruisers plenty fast enough for just about any purpose we care to build them for. I definitely think both Accelerator Amplification and Armada CnC would be better research paths to take right at the moment.

When I reach a point in the game where I can field large fleets of CRs I auto-resolve most of the combats so anything other than tanker DEs is just a drain on fuel. I just bounce from one planet to the next destroying the AI colonies. Having the right weapons and using AR just does far more damage than I can get manually. I do manual combat for well defended colonies where the AR does a terrible job. In those cases I try to maximize the command point bonus so I can field 10-12 CRs + CNC. Even if my ships are weaker the combined firepower usually overwhelms the handful of AI ships in each wave. And I want CRs, not DEs, in that situation. Just my style of play...

I was wondering if your suggested restriction on forcing enemies to surrender was intended to encourage an AR-centric style of conquest. Personally I have never really found the idea of relying a lot on auto-resolve to speed late game cleanup to be appealing. As may be obvious from my own TARs, I like to do things in an efficient manner, and handing over control of my fleets to the computer is anything but an efficient way to use my resouces. :) The same applies to building massive fleets large enough to support outnumbering bonus up to the level where 10-12 cruisers can be deployed; with that many ships I could field several smaller fleets and hit multiple places at once. As you say, though, it's largely a matter of playstyle; there's nothing inherently wrong with it if that's how you like to roll. The only question is whether the other players are willing to join you on that page.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Post Reply

Return to “T.A.R.”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests