SotS1-SG16

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ZedF
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SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:04 pm

So, here's the setup, folks. It should be a comparable level of challenge to the last game, but we'll need to start expanding quickly in order to get the ball rolling.

Player: 2 PE Tarka, $1M starting cash, 0 techs
Teammate: 2 PE Hiver, $1M starting cash, 0 techs
Enemies: 4 Zuul, 3+1 PE, $50k starting cash, 0 techs

Save is attached. The game is open to anyone at any time. Who'd like to start off? First player may take 20 turns. Remember, we need to scout and colonize aggressively before the Zuul start doing their thing.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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kjn
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:52 pm

I'm game if you want me to open the game.

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:35 am

ZedF wrote:The game is open to anyone at any time.

If you're up for the initial REX, kjn, feel free. Same applies to anyone else. Whoever posts 'got it' first has got it.

Normally the first player takes 20 turns, then 10 turns per player thereafter, but in the last game that was pretty variable as well.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ivra » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:43 am

kjn wrote:I'm game if you want me to open the game.

Sure go ahead. I had planned to grab it later today, but you go first.

Before we begin this game maybe we should discuss some opening moves. If I had opened it I would have built maximum number of ERs at our two colonies for 3-4 turns, trying to get to as many planets as possible. I would then have researched Waldo Units on max until I reached 50%, then turn it down to 25% to try to get over a million in cash again.

Looking at the map I think we can be certain that we have one Zuul to our left (the short end of the tube) and 3 to our right. Since Zuul are really aggressive in the beginning of the game I would have researched Sniper Cannon next, then VRF Technology, and finally point defense (if we get it). This will be on accord of researching the industry/biological techs that is normally done early in a game. The idea is that it is much more expensive to lose a new colony than to wait with the industry/biological techs. I would eventually have designed armors with Sniper Cannons in most of the slots and PD in one or two slots. Then I would have created a fleet of 10+ ships and sent them to our newly colonized worlds, at least one fleet on each side of the tube. In the beginning I would have defended new colonies with 10 ERs and maybe some tankers. Zuul normally scout with 8 ships, but if it encounters a colony it often attacks with 20-30 ships right after creating the node link.

What are your thoughts on my starting strategy?
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:57 am

Hm, some of that sounds ok but other bits sound somewhat iffy.
  • Getting a bunch of scouts out and about is a good idea, but I would be thinking about building both lots of scouts and a few tankers to refuel them. Since this is 50/50 we may not be able to afford the maintenance costs to keep pickets everywhere immediately; that might have to wait until we've colonized and developed our first few worlds. Similarly, I wouldn't worry about saving up $1M just yet, it will be a lot easier once our initial wave of colonies matures.
  • I'm not sure that tech strategy is necessarily the best. It puts a lot of emphasis on ERs and weapons suitable for ERs, but that delays a lot of other useful things for a long time, including stuff needed for more powerful armour DDs. Don't forget that, apart from ERs, Tarka Fission DDs have only range 4, and that Sniper Cannons are a dead-end tech. If going for an early weapons tech, I would prefer mass drivers to start with; Zuul are faster than us and will close to brawling range, and our armour and war sections are pretty well armed. But I tend to think we need at least one range extending tech before we plan to build any significant number of armours, or we'll need too many tankers to get anywhere. And for military techs, I think we'll probably want DD CnC before PD.
  • Also note that our colonizers start with so few colonists on board that getting suspended animation is hard to pass up, especially since the first two bio-techs are much cheaper than most other things we could research.
  • Still, having a bunch of Gauss-armed ER DDs out and about looking to defend our colonies and crush Zuul exploration fleets headed in our direction would be a reasonable plan. We will not be able to afford a ton of research for a long time; economic growth is far more important, so we will have to make do with substandard military tech for the duration. Initially, gauss ERs are likely our best bet for defense until we can get some range extender techs going.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:34 pm

ivra wrote:Sure go ahead. I had planned to grab it later today, but you go first.


No problem, I'm up to turn 18 right now and will send in the game later today.

ivra wrote:Before we begin this game maybe we should discuss some opening moves. If I had opened it I would have built maximum number of ERs at our two colonies for 3-4 turns, trying to get to as many planets as possible. I would then have researched Waldo Units on max until I reached 50%, then turn it down to 25% to try to get over a million in cash again.


This is mostly what I've done so far, though I did run waldoes at max at the beginning, coasted for a while, and then turned off research. So far we have 54 scouts (59 built, but some have been lost to derelicts and Zuul), 16 settlers (and 4 which have been used so far), and 22 tankers.

We are also up to 6 colonies and 28 explored systems. We lost one settler to a colony trap, but another settler is on the way to that world and will be there turn 20. One of the colonies is a former independent world. :D

ivra wrote:Looking at the map I think we can be certain that we have one Zuul to our left (the short end of the tube) and 3 to our right. Since Zuul are really aggressive in the beginning of the game I would have researched Sniper Cannon next, then VRF Technology, and finally point defense (if we get it).


Yes, we have one Zuul to our left. I had started to guess we had a secure front there when I didn't encounter anything for a while, but we've met them now.

ZedF has already pointed out the troubles with the sniper/PD/armor strategy. Distances are quite long, so even pulsed fission by itself is of little help in getting our short-range ships around. We might want to go for fusion before cruisers here, but I leave that open for now.

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:32 pm

We are on a "tube" map, are allied with the Hivers and have to fight against a bunch of Zuul (4).

Design the following ships during my turnset:

ScoutDE Gauss s02
SettlerDE Gauss s02 (coloniser)
TankerDE Gauss s02

We have a research malus, and possibly also an economy malus - researching Waldoes will take 7 turns at no production (with two developed planets), and 12 with full production. This makes when to open the research tricky, despite starting with 1 mega-credit.

I decide to scoot for 50% Waldoes ASAP (max research). We should reach that in 5 or 6 turns, and can then coast for a while. I want Waldoes early to give our starting colonies a leg up - higher IO means lower CH sooner means higher population.

Turn 1:

Queue up 8 scouts (6 in Ku'Van and 1+1 in Ke'Kiralta).
Max research on Waldoes (11 turns)

End turn

Turn 2:

Queue up another 9 scouts (6 in Ku'Van and 2+1 in Ke'Kiralta).
Give scouts orders.

End turn.

Turn 3:

Queue up another 8 scouts (6 in Ku'Van and 2 in Ke'Kiralta). Start pre-building 2 SettlerDEs timed for when we get our first scout reports (T5).

End turn.

Turn 4:

Queue up 1 Settler and 2 Tankers in Ku'Van (will finish 2+2 next turn), and 1 Tanker in Ke'Kiralta (the coloniser will finish the next turn, and the tanker will arrive the turn after).

End turn.

Interturn:

Menace at Ke'Trath. Nice planet. I decide to evade this turn. The derelict has a large beam, a torpedo, 4 mediums, and 12 small turrets. The torpedo is an AM which kills our scout. The derelict has a particle beam, gauss cannons, phaser PD, X-ray lasera, and phasers.

Turn 5:

Waldoes at 51%, so I reduce research to circa one quarter.

None of the explored planets are realistic colony targets. Kua'Gra is at 500 CH (though a nice 130 or so for our Hiver allies), and we will never be able to colonise Ka'Vaala.

Send one settler-tanker pair to Kua'Gra to pre-position it.

Queue up more settler and tankers.

End turn.

Turn 6:

Ke'Groko is another marginal world for us (CH 350), but it's near-ideal for our Hiver allies. I pre-position a settler-tanker pair to the planet.

Queue up a tanker in Ke'Kiralta (will get a Settler next turn), and a tanker and four scouts in Ku'Van.

End turn.

Turn 7:

Chanorr, Keu'Loko, and Ke'Pranum explored.

Chanorr (CH 250, 4.8K resources, size 6) is a decent if non-ideal target for expansion. Ke'Pranum (CH 260, 4.1K resources, size 4) should probably wait for now, but I pre-position a settler-tanker pair.

Realise I've forgot to send a scout to Ke'Wolkor, send one off from Ku'Van (due in 5 turns).

End turn.

Interturn: Independent Hiver colony of Keu'Kessu, auto-peace.

Turn 8:

Keu'Kessu, Ke'Rassak explored. More scouts and tankers ordered. Send info on Ke'Pranum to the Hivers.

End turn, auto-peae at Keu'Kessu.

Turn 9:

Finally some decent colonisation targets.

Aichi (CH 75, 6.8K resources, size 6), and we can get a coloniser there in 5t.
Ku'Sulto (CH 120, 3K resources, size 3)
Tychopre (CH 195, 5.4K resources, sie 1)

Right now, we have a budget of 100 megacredits at max construction, and can thus spend up to 70 or so megacredits on expansion per turn. That's enough for Aichi, Ku'Sulto, and Chanorr, but I might defer Chanorr for a while due to its high cost and long time to develop.

Order up 2 tanker-settler pairs in Ku'Van, and another scout in Ke'Kiralta.

End turn.

Interturn: Menace at Chytoket, a derelict with only small and medium turrets. I begin neutralising it immediately.

Turn 10:

We get an early breakthrough in Waldoes! Set research to Gene Modification, but don't put any funds into it yet.

Several new appealing colonisation targets:

Ixion (CH 170, 4.8K resources, size 4)
Marklar (CH 70, 2.4K resources, size 3)

I send off two scouts towards Ke'Trath to try to clear out the AM torpedo derelict (the torpedo is the main target, after that it should be reasonably easy). I will also hold off on clearing the derelict at Chytoket for a while, so we can combine the two research bonuses into the same set of turns later on.

End turn.

Interturn: Peace at Keu'Kessu, and evade the derelict at Chytoket.

More scouts and tankers ordered.

End turn.

Interturn: as last turn

Turn 11:

Izakis (CH 185, 3.4K resources, size 6). It's quite a bit away, but it's of decent size.
Bolovax Nik (CH 115, 4.6K resources, size 5)

More settlers and tankers ordered. Send off settler-tanker pairs towards Izakis, Bolovax Nik, and Ku'Sulto.

End turn.

Interturn: I manage to clear out two small turrets and damage the torpedo, but walk into the arc of a phaser turret and get the attacking scout destroyed. The second scout got hit by the torpedo and has a destroyed mission section.

Turn 12:

Ke'Trath (CH 245, 5.8K resources, size 4); this is the planet with the AM torpedo derelict.

End turn.

Interturn: Manage to avoid the weapons of the Chytoket derelict and start to strip the torpedo. The crippled scout doesn't manage to destroy the weapon, however.

Turn 13:

Settle Aichi. Order more ships.

End turn.

Interturn: manage to strip the AM torpedo at Ke'Trath.

Turn 14:

Our first colony, at Aichi! With only 74 CH I don't bother with overharvesting.

Order Ku'Sulto to be colonised. Tychopre is marginal (CH 195), and I'd rather colonise Ixion ASAP, which is larger and has slightly lower CH.

Turn 15:

New interesting planets:

Ekkep (CH 25, 5.1K resources, size 5)
Scaramouche (CH 285, 4.9K resources, size 6)

Dispatches a settler-tanker pair to Ekkep immediately.

End turn. Loses the crippled scout at Ke'Trath trying to strip the turrets.

Turn 16:

A settler-tanker pair is sent to Ekkep immediately.

Ku'Sulto colonised. With CH 120 I don't bother with overharvesting, and the planet is resource-poor anyway.

Order Marklar to be colonised. More ships ordered.

End turn.

Interturn: I had thought we had a safe backline, but we encounter a rip bore and immature colony of The Chosen (yellow Zuul) at Fomalhaut. I bypass the rip bore and go for the colony. I think I managed to glass the colony, but my scout is destroyed by the planetary missiles.

Turn 17:

Marklar colonised. Order Ixion to be colonised.

New interesting planet!

Bronson Alpha (CH 22, 5.2K resources, size 5). I can dispatch a settler-tanker pair from Ku'Sultu on turn 19.

We also have an incoming Zuul fleet from The Chosen at Ekkep, originating from Koozebane. The Zuul are very close to us in preferred CH (at 42), so I'm not sure we can manage to hold Ekkep.

Order more settlers, tankers, and scouts.

End turn.

Interturn:

Iszm: 6 Zuul ships; nice planet; red Zuul (The Nameless)
Keu'Kessu: auto peace
Ke'Trath: strip the large beam and some small turrets
Chytoket: evade
Ixion: colony trap, coloniser lost

Turn 18:

First good break! We get the independent colony of Zamara, size 6 and 5.3K resources. I activate population control and order a settler.

End turn.

Scouts lost at Ekkep (v. yellow Zuul) and Ke'Trath while stripping some more turrets.

The derelict at Chytoket has all turrets stripped but a small one.

Turn 19:

Send off a settler group towards Bolovax Nik. Some more ships ordered, but of limited numbers. Also design a basic ArmorDE.

End turn.

Interturn:

Immature white Zuul colony at Prion, which however is defended by 6 armors, so our scout dies. Evade the derelect at Chytoket.

Turn 20:

Order some newly refueled scouts to continue exploring. Set settlers to land on Izakis and Bolovax Nik. Bolovax we want to colonise this turn, but we might want to defer Izakis since it's CH 185 (cost almost 28,000 credits per turn). Izakis and Bolovax will more than double our planetary development costs.

Recommendations and things to discuss

There is a scout going for Ke'Trath, due there in 2t. I think stripping the rest of the turrets will take another 2t, and we should strip the last turret of the Chytoket derelict at the same time for max research bonus.

Right now Gene Manipulation is selected, but nothing has been invested yet. I think we might want to go for GM -> Suspended Animation, but we have plenty of old-style colonisers already, so I'm not sure we need that tech right now.

Should we colonise Izakis this turn? I've ordered that, but I'd probably like to wait a little more before going for the planet due to the relatively high cost.

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:53 pm

Sounds like a good start, I will take a look later and see if any more detailed notes are needed. One thing to consider is that our new colony at Zamara is going to need morale help sooner than most of our other worlds, as it only starts at 50 morale and is already maxed out (in fact, over max) on civilians. So we will either need to keep building colonizers there (at least 1/turn as long as we can manage it) or we will need to save up $1M sooner than we otherwise might. If we find another independent colony, the latter will almost certainly be required.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by Starknight » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:44 pm

kjn wrote:Recommendations and things to discuss

There is a scout going for Ke'Trath, due there in 2t. I think stripping the rest of the turrets will take another 2t, and we should strip the last turret of the Chytoket derelict at the same time for max research bonus.

Right now Gene Manipulation is selected, but nothing has been invested yet. I think we might want to go for GM -> Suspended Animation, but we have plenty of old-style colonisers already, so I'm not sure we need that tech right now.


As ZedF pointed out, our initial colony allotments are pretty small. Having both a pop growth boost (GM) and more colonists per ship (SA) means our colonies will mature faster, meaning more economy to offset the research and econ penalties. We should probably make this a priority.

kjn wrote:Should we colonise Izakis this turn? I've ordered that, but I'd probably like to wait a little more before going for the planet due to the relatively high cost.


I'd say we should focus on any sub-100 CH planets for the time being - Bronson Alpha and Ekkep, certainly - and possibly reroute other colonizers to some of the earlier colonies to bulk them up a bit. (That will help mature them faster and cut down on maintenance, so two birds with one ship!) We're in a decent position now, but too much more investment in colony development is going to hamper us significantly if the Zuul start probing in force, and we're going to need a decent amount of our budget to keep a significant defensive force on each of our borders. Once we start getting these colonies to mature, we can grab stuff that's a bit farther from our range.

Bolovax Nik is iffy, but probably doable - but I'd definitely want more than one colonizer there. Izakis I'd say hold off on for now, picket and wait for our economy to mature.

I also agree with ZedF on weapons tech - going to Mass Drivers makes more sense than Sniper Cannons. Snipers are good if you can keep the range open, but we're not going to be able to do that against Zuul. In a furball, Gauss Cannon and MDs will be better for us; Stormers or Mass Shotguns might be good options as well, and of course AP is always a plus if the enemies pick up armor.

I have the current save but I'm not going to be able to play the turns tonight, so if someone else wants to take it, they can.
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:41 pm

Yes, we definitely want GM soon, it's going for SA after that that I'm unsure about.

As for putting several colonisers on a single colony, my general rule of thumb is to only do it if I can drop another coloniser or two there within the next few turns, usually no more than three or four. Otherwise I think the marginal return is too low.

Agree on Mass Drivers over sniper cannons. However, there is also the option of going for UV lasers. Much more expensive, yes, but they will help our scouts as well (though I'm unsure how many more scouts we will need to build).

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:03 pm

Regarding colonizers... really it depends on how quickly you can afford to build them and get them to the world in question. It's worth noting that the first 2-3 colonizers landing at a world give the most marginal return, even on low hazard worlds; that first couple starting infrastructure is more significant than it would at first appear. For a nice low hazard world like Bolovax Nik I would probably build 3-4 colonizers -- one to look for traps and the rest to follow up. But I would not be averse to splitting off ships for other nice destinations discovered while the fleet was enroute to Bolovax Nik, and I would not be averse to colonizing with just the initial ship if it found no trap and the rest were needed elsewhere.

Regarding tech vs. expansion, really as long as we are colonizing low hazard worlds we should always prefer expansion to tech at this point. For sub-200 CH worlds you don't really need SA, though of course it's nice to have. For SA, my aim would be to focus on colonizing sub-200 CH worlds as much as possible in the first wave, or maybe up to 250 CH if they have high resources., without SA, and then tech to SA after the first wave colonies have matured. Ideally we'd like to use SA colonizers for everything over 200 CH, assuming the timing works out.

Regarding the use of our current colonizers -- at this point in the game we want to spread as far and wide as possible as long as we are settling low hazard worlds. I would be comfortable going up to 50% development costs, or even a bit higher, providing all the worlds were individually nice and cheap to maintain and thus have high pop growth rates; the idea is that it's difficult to attack mature worlds at this point with just a few ships, so we should be doing our utmost to get our colonies settled and borders established ASAP, so they can mature before the Zuul discover them. We especially want to push our borders toward the center of the map and keep going until we face some kind of opposition. I certainly would not bulk up existing colonies with colonizers that have been built to settle other new worlds. I might be tempted to build a couple more colonizers for each world going forward, but we still need to keep expanding rapidly here, and we should not be turning on research just yet.

Regarding Izakis, we should probably get another few colonizers there before we settle it. It's close to 200 CH and has low resources, so giving it an upfront boost is more significant than normal.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by Starknight » Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:11 am

Change of plans: I'm not going to be playing my other game tonight, so I can get on the next 10 turns now.

EDIT: and here's the write-up!

Turn 20:
Things look pretty good, I hit end turn...

IT:
Keu'Kessu - peace with indie Hivers

Chytoket - run out of range and peace to end early

Turn 21:
... doggone it. I meant to stop the colonization at Izakis, but it's a done deal now; I'll just have to live with it. This makes getting GM more imperative in my mind, however - we need to get those costs down. 17 turns at 100% is too much, though. I leave research turned off.

8 ships of The Chosen are detected at Ekkep... the colony ship and tanker are probably toast but I'll see if I can rescue them. I build a strikeforce to go take the world back, reducing our savings further.

No new worlds of immediate interest. Tankers routed to refuel scouts.

IT:
Keu'Kessu: Peace

Ke'Trath: A scout arrives to strip the derelict. No turrets are removed.

Ekkep: The Zuul haven't colonized the planet yet, and we start in missile range. Escape is impossible.

Chytoket: Run out of range and peace.

Turn 22:
A scout arrives at the lonely rock of Procyon.

IT:
Flinx: The Nameless has 4 ships here to meet our single scout. It's a colony with no asteroid cover; I run for interstellar space and get away before the planet missiles arrive.

Keu'Kessu: Peace

Mamoru: A colony of The Chosen, no ships are present. Hopefully it's a baby world we can smash... and it is. We are able to stay in asteroid shadow most of the way to the planet, and pound on it mercilessly.

Ke'Trath: More turret shooting. All but one phaser turret stripped at the cost of the command section and damage to the mission section.

Chytoket: Run and peace; should be able to finish it next turn.

Turn 23:
Scouts at Procyon detect incoming Zuul engine signatures, but differing from The Chosen and The Nameless. We designate these 'The Righteous' and assign the color magenta to the strategic overlay. The scout pushes off to Slyggia to see what's there; one ship cannot fight eight. Procyon is within the Zuul colonization range, I think, but it's on the very edge; it will take some time to become a threat.

Zozoris is scouted (CH 129.66, size 6, 7.2k resources) and colony ships are dispatched; they will be a while in arriving, however.

The scout retreats from Mamoru, job well done. We will need to revisit this world.

IT:
Keu'Kessu: Peace

Hydra: Crows! Advanced technology destroyers catch up to our scout and obliterate him in a stream of pulsed phaser fire.

Ke'Trath: Stripping the last turret... success!

Chytoket: Removed the last turret as well. Double bonus!

Turn 24:
Given a 50% research boost for 4 turns, I turn research all the way up. Still 14 turns to GM, but no sense having a boost and not using it. I adjust the slider to keep a trickle of income without changing the ETA; we should be ~30% complete when the boost runs out.

The fleet to clear Ekkep is launched, and a follow-up colony fleet is launched as well. The Nameless are boring a line to Heegaraa, but since it's ~CH 830 to them they shouldn't be able to colonize it.

IT:
Keu'Kessu: Peace

Turn 25:
The Righteous are incoming to Parvati; scout retreated to refuel.

Our ally asks for Zozoris. Well, I guess CH 500 isn't that worrying to Hivers. I still think they'd be better off waiting to take Mamoru and Vela; those are almost ideal for them. But since we don't have anything that can stop them in the area, if they want it, they'll take it. :)

The Chosen have 8 ships incoming to Scaramouche; we have 4 scouts and 2 tankers. We'll fight - and a follow-up of 4 more scouts are on the way to reinforce the survivors (or avenge the fallen).

IT:
Keu'Kessu: Peace

Badoon: One scout vs. 6 Zuul (The Nameless). It's a baby colony, but I won't be able to get close with 6 ships, even if they're colonizers. Running for open space... and escaped.

Scaramouche: 8 ship Zuul bore-fleet vs. 4 scouts, 2 tankers. We take out 4 of their HH/Armor ships for all of our ships.

Winath: One scout vs. 19 Zuul (The Chosen). Starting within scanner range means we can't survive to disengage.

Turn 26:
We've made up a turn in research (reduced costs, most likely); I keep research turned up high. We're on track for 30% at the end of the 4 turns.

IT:
Keu'Kessu: Peace

Majipoor: The Chosen have a bore-fleet here. It's a rock, the missiles take their toll.

Koozebane: The Chosen have one Law-giver DE here. He asks for peace, I give it to get a view of the planet.

Turn 27:
Nothing special to report.

IT:
Hebron: Owned by The Righteous. 11 ships await the scout. They ask for peace, and seem to be colonizers; nice looking planet.

Keu'Kessu: Peace

Dorsai: The Chosen have 11 ships here. Once again, we're in scanner range from the start and do not live to retreat.

Bronson Alpha: VN attack. Two Settlers and a Scout are eaten, spawning a new mothership.

Turn 28:
The Righteous' colonizers are designated 'Ligator'. Terminate on sight.

I keep research high even though the bonus is gone, pushing for 50% completion (I won't get there, but 40% is going to happen).

IT:
Keu'Kessu: Peace

Scaramouche: One of the enemy ships has fled, making it 4 to 3 in our favor, but one of theirs is a Rip Bore. The tanker and armor are down, one scout lost and others damaged.

Octans: The ship that fled from Scaramouche is here, heavily damaged; our scout moves to intercept. Enemy ship destroyed.

Turn 29:
Zytokot explored (CH 89.59, S2, 6.9k Res); settlers dispatched.

IT:
Gotham: The Righteous have a baby colony here, but 6 defenders means I'm not getting close. I start in an asteroid shadow and run out the time for info.

Keu'Kessu: Peace

Heegaraa: Tanker vs. Bore-fleet. We just can't run fast enough. (The tanker was dispatched before The Nameless started coming here, and with no warp-comm, they couldn't turn around.)

Scaramouche, scaramouche, will you do the fandango?: We dance with the rip-bore and take it down.

Turn 30:
We're currently spending 86k out of 186k income on colony support; the rest is mostly split between ship maintenance and research at this point. GM should be over 50% in 1-2 turns, so I'm sure that balance will change.

I leave orders for ships, etc., up to the next player.

Observations:

I really should have cancelled the colonization of Izakis, but having missed it I let it stand. Having more income would probably have been better for us than a slowly maturing colony... but c'est la vie.

The attack on Ekkep should be occurring about turn 31; colonizers are following up since the planet was so nice. The scouts built for that endeavor can be repurposed as people see fit, although using them to keep baby Zuul colonies suppressed in the area is a good idea.
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The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ivra » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:36 am

I do not understand why some of you say that we should pick mass driver instead of sniper cannons. Mass drivers are a medium mount weapon and I was talking about what small mount weapon to pick. The alternative is UV lasers, a much more expensive option. Off course we are going to pick mass drivers and AP drivers if we get it, but that does not help our scouts who only have small mounts. The nice thing with sniper cannons is that they get at boos t from VRF which we will pick up to get PD. Also, sniper cannons are very good at fighting alien derelicts.

I have also noted that the other play style was selected: Expand as fast as possible with no regards of defending what we colonize. Instead we hope for the best and end up losing a few colonies. The selected techs are also selected as in a normal game, with focus on industry/biology. I suggested another approach, but I wonder if this reckless expanding approach is the only viable approach. At least is seems to be. Since the two first players have played using this approach I will try to follow it too.

With that I have grabbed the game and will report back when I have played 10 turns.
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ivra » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:33 am

Turn 30
How reckless do we want to be? None of our colonies have a garrison fleet to defend against VN. 2 ships at each colony it will cost us 9000 credits. I think it is worth it even if 2 ships are not enough to defend against Zuul's scout fleets of 8 ships. But in this game I will follow the flow and not use money on garrison fleets. Let's see how it goes.

Battles
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Attaking Ekkep: 14 Scouts vs. Zuul colony with 3 DEs + 10 LDs. Colony down. Lost 2 ships and took out 3 ships and 5 LDs. Zuul are sending a reinforcement of 5 ships next turn.

Turn 31
Ixion colonized. (Oops was that one of those that should wait? There were colony ships there so I assumed it should be colonized.) I am building colonizers at both Ke'Kiralta and Zamara to battle the morale.

Battles
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Scout arrived at Unicron. Scout destroyed. Unicron is the HW of the white Zuul.
Attaking Ekkep: 12 Scouts vs. Zuul with 6 DEs + 5 LDs. Lost. Managed to take out 5 ships but my scouts were just too damaged. Zuul managed to keep control over Ekkep by sending in 6 more ships. 18 Zuul more ships will arrive next turn. Hiver will attack this planet in 13 turns with 26 ships. Maybe we should join?
Scout arrived at Octans. They asked for peace and I accepted. I will keep my scout there and accept peace every turn to prevent Zuul from colonizing it. It is a dirty trick, but I am going to use it.

Turn 32
Gene Modification at 49%. I am turning down research this turn.

Battles
Scout arrived at Pentacon. Peace offered and accepted. Pentacon is the HW of the pink zuul.
Scout arrived at Volans and was destroyed by alien wreckage.
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Scout arrived at Bismol and was destroyed by alien wreckage.
Tanker + Colonizer destroyed at Ekkep.
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.

Turn 33
Nothing special.

Battles
Scout at Pentacon(HW of the pink zuul) was out of fuel could not move on. Scout lost.
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Defending Scaramouche. 3 damaged scouts + 1 tanker vs. 2 yellow Zuul DEs. It was two colonizers asking for peace. I tried to close in but I only managed to do some damage during the battle. The zuul ships move too fast. I think I have to try AR next turn.
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.
Scout arrived at Ymar, another pink zuul colony. Scout lost.

Turn 34
Building a lot of scouts this turn and next to send to Ekkep to arrive the same turn as Hiver arrives.

Battles
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Scout arrived at Lagash. Peace offered and accepted. Lagash is a mature colony of the pink Zuul.
Defending Scaramouche. 3 damaged scouts + 1 tanker vs. 2 yellow Zuul DEs. Trying AR this turn. Whops, AR destroyed all the ships except our tanker.
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.

Turn 35
Building the last ships for the attack of Ekkep.

Battles
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Scout at Lagash is out of fuel and could not move on. It was destroyed by the arriving Zuul fleet.
Scout arrived at Mogo and was destroyed by a swarm.
Scout arrived at Mongo, another mature white Zuul colony.
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.

Turn 36
Ships from the HW left for Ekkep. We will have 16 Scouts, 2 Armors and 1 Tanker in the attack. Hiver will have 26 ships.

Battles
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Scout arrived at Cuthbert and was destroyed. Cuthbert is another white Zuul colony.
Scout at Vela destroyed by yellow scout fleet of 6 ships.
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.

Turn 37
Zytokot colonized. Gene Modification made a breakthrough (at ca. 53%). And bad news: We don't have suspended animation. Aichi has reached 100 in infrastructure and will be up and running next turn. I am not going to start a new research project, but let the next player decide. We have only 20000 credits so maybe it is time to try to save a little. The ships for the attack at Ekkep was costly.

Battles
Tanker arriving at Hebron (the only destination it could reach) was destroyed by 6 pink Zuul DEs. Hebron is colonized.
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.

Turn 38
Aichi is finished and will now contribute to our income. Argh, lost another good colonization target to our Hiver allied. It was only CH=40 for us...

Battles
Scout arrived at Griffin and encountered 4 morrigi scouts.
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony)
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.

Turn 39
Nothing special

Battles
Scout arrived at Regis and found an asteroid monitor. Managed to flee.
Peace at Keu'Kesssu (independent colony). I hope it works this time as well. White Zuul arrived with 8 ships. It didn't work. All ships was destroyed.
Peace at Octans to prevent Zuul from colonizing it.
Scout arrived at Hyperion (HW of the yellow Zuul) and was destroyed.

Turn 40
I have not done anything. Things to consider: What do we want to research? Do we want to start the Monitor Control at Regis? Do we want to continue to build a colonizer at Ke'Kiralta, Zamara, and now also our HW (it is down to 86 in morale). Do we want to continue without garrison fleets?

SotS1-SG16 T040.sav
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:47 am

ivra wrote:I suggested another approach, but I wonder if this reckless expanding approach is the only viable approach. At least is seems to be.

Well ivra, yes and no.
  • Against the AI, especially when you start at a disadvantage, yes it's the best approach. The AI is relatively predictable, and does not react quickly compared to a human. If you don't expand your economy quickly in order to overcome your starting economic disadvantage, you will only find that disadvantage persisting or even growing over time. Recall SG12 and the different results gotten by early expansion vs. not. Always remember in 4X games, as the saying goes, "it's the economy, stupid!"
  • Against live opponents, it's a bit different. A live opponent has a chance of noticing when you are over-investing in economy and under-investing in defense, and calling you on it by building up and launching an overwhelming attack. So you need to pay much more attention to scouting and finding out what your opponent is up to, and making sure you don't fall too far behind either the power curve or the economy curve. It's still the case that he who successfully grows their economy the fastest has the best chance of winning, but all of a sudden that "successfully" becomes a lot more important when playing in MP.

I do not understand why some of you say that we should pick mass driver instead of sniper cannons.

Because we don't have enough income yet to justify picking up both a small mount weapon and a medium mount weapon, and the medium mount weapon is more important going forward. Again, it's about prioritizing spending money on growth rather than tech which is nice to have but ultimately not crucial. In this game, sniper cannons are just not a large enough improvement over gauss cannons, given our 50/50 settings that cripple the value of technology investments by making every technology have double the direct cost and more than double the opportunity cost.

None of our colonies have a garrison fleet to defend against VN. 2 ships at each colony it will cost us 9000 credits. I think it is worth it even if 2 ships are not enough to defend against Zuul's scout fleets of 8 ships.

I would agree that VN defenses are worthwhile, but that's because I don't like to lose 500 resources to VNs when I could feed them a couple cheap and easily replaceable ships instead. I would say it's fine to build VN defenses.

Hiver will attack Ekkep in 13 turns with 26 ships. Maybe we should join?

This sounds like a good idea to me.

bad news: We don't have suspended animation.

Yikes; this is unfortunate indeed!

Scout arrived at Griffin and encountered 4 morrigi scouts.

I believe we can re-scout the morrigi scout worlds (but not the wreckage worlds.)

I have not done anything. Things to consider: What do we want to research? Do we want to start the Monitor Control at Regis? Do we want to continue to build a colonizer at Ke'Kiralta, Zamara, and now also our HW (it is down to 86 in morale). Do we want to continue without garrison fleets?

Personally I would be happy to station a couple armour DDs at each world. Starting to rebuild our picket net would also be a good idea, especially for worlds near our territory; we do want advance notice of Zuul scouting efforts and potential attack fleets headed our way. Remember that killing bore ships is as painful for the Zuul as killing gates is for the Hivers.

Regis is only a size 1 world, but it is colonizable by us (as well as by the Zuul.) This one is debatable; depends on whether we think we can hack it before the Zuul send a bore fleet there, as they will be much faster at hacking it than us due to the Hard AI and Zuul bonuses.

We are going to continue to need colonizers, and several of them per colony prospect from here on out as we lack suspended animation and are almost out of <200 CH worlds to settle. On the plus side, a couple more of our earliest colonies should be done maturing soon. Hopefully that will boost our income so that saving up for $1M will not take quite so long as it would right now. We won't be able to delay that forever.

As far as research projects go, I tend to think that Recombinant Fissionables, Pulsed Fission, Mass Drivers, and Cybernetic Interface would all be defensible choices at this point.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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