SotS1-SG16

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ZedF
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:10 am

Why exactly are we fighting 4 hide in asteroid battles every turn? I certainly would do that once at any given planet to get an intel assessment, but not every turn; I'd move off somewhere to monitor from a distance.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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ivra
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ivra » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:54 am

ZedF wrote:Why exactly are we fighting 4 hide in asteroid battles every turn? I certainly would do that once at any given planet to get an intel assessment, but not every turn; I'd move off somewhere to monitor from a distance.

I never do it in my single-player game, but I thought it was necessary in SG-games. It has been done a lot. Personally, I just AR and send a new scout if I need to.
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:23 pm

Feel free to move out the scouts around Zuul colonies; I kept them there mainly to tie down enemy forces at little cost to ourselves and keep the planets blockaded (ie at lower IO).

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ivra » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:31 am

I'll be away for a almost a week. Will be back on Friday.
Good luck with the upcoming big battle against red Zuul!
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:50 pm

I haven't had a chance to grab this yet this weekend, but hopefully early this week some time will free up.
If anyone wants to grab it in the interim, please feel free!
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

kjn
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:03 pm

Will probably not be able to play until later this week anyway.

Now that we have CRs, the question is how we are to get smarter use of our fleets, once we have CR Cnc and R&S.

Hyper-link communications would make it easier to handle our fleets mid-course.

Integrated Sensors -> Advanced Sensors would give us better intelligence. I tried to send out non-auto-refuelling tankers late in my last turnset, but it appears they were all lost, probably since I didn't make any notes of them.

And then there's of course Fusion.

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Starknight
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by Starknight » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:40 pm

I have the save; I should be able to play my turns today or tomorrow.

I'm inclined to grab Hyper-link soonish, and better sensors are good. I'll check on the time Fusion will take, but I suspect it's still going to be a bit longer than I'm comfortable with given the game settings. Still, if it's reasonable, I might go ahead and start it after Hyper-link.
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:25 pm

In a way, we've run out of all the easy economic boosters. We have lots of colonies, and almost all of them are fully developed, so any new colony will provide relatively little. We have both CI and ES, so the only real boosts we can give our economy are probably Arcologies and trade.

Just remember to pick up Repair&Salvage before Fusion.

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by Starknight » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:09 am

Managed to get my turns done today.

Turn 125:

I adjust research spending down to the cheapest 2-turn completion in order to build up reserve cash for cruiser construction. I use up the last bit of production capacity at Cuthbert to build one more WarDE on the YNK principle. Otherwise things look good.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro - the scout runs and hides behind the moon.

Dosadi - the settler fleet finds a mature colony with Zuul warships. Fortunately they are not close by, and the point defense stops the planet missiles while the warpdrive charges. Retreat successful.

Giedi Prime - the scout hides in an asteroid shadow.

Tupile - the scout arrives to find nowhere to hide, but he is able to run, outpacing the planet missiles. Retreat.

Laertes - more asteroid hiding.

Cuthbert - A hard fought battle; we lose a number of DEs while taking out at least 7 enemy CRs, including 2 CNC ships.

Cassandra - our Hiver allies bring 9 CRs, the Zuul only have 8 DEs. Our two scouts keep the Rip Bore busy while the Hivers destroy everything.

Ymar - hiding in the asteroids yet again.

Turn 126:

Data Synergy comes in early. I dither a bit but end up going for Salvage Tech at 2 turns.

Apparently I lost count at Cuthbert: We lost 2 LDs and 18 DEs while taking out 14(!) enemy CRs. Both enemy CNCs are down; they only brought 2. I believe the Armor model is the Khoeng, and the Santesokh is a Blazer - they have HCL.

I order up a couple of ships at Pentacon to scout a few remaining unknown planets.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro - hide and go seek.

Giedi Prime - ditto, but without an asteroid near it's not pretty. The scout is destroyed.

Lusus - a scout arrives to find a maturing Zuul colony, and nowhere to hide. Retreat is impossible when the first planet missile arrives 3 seconds before the engines are charged. :(

Laertes - we hide, they seek.

Ymar - ditto.

Turn 127:

The remaining ships from Cuthbert are boring a line to Galifrey. DownSouth fleet heads there to meet them as they exit. UpSouth fleet arrives at Pentacon; some reinforcements are ordered, with an eye towards attacking Laertes.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro - will the scout's luck hold? Yes, yes it will.

Sera - a Shatterbone DE (Rip Bore) arrives. Our scout engages and is victorious!

Laertes - hide-n-seek.

Salusa - a small bore-fleet (2 CRs, 2 DEs) arrives; our ally has 13 CRs and more on hand. Our scout loses the mission section in the tanker explosion, though.

Ymar - more dodging conflict.

Merak - a VN mothership arrives to scout. Our scout tries to run but the probe is ever so slightly faster.

Turn 128:

Salvage Tech comes in early; I check Fusion (13 turns at 100%) but decide to push for Hyper-Link Comms so we have better strategic control instead.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro, Laertes, Ymar - all three scouts hide in the asteroids.

Turn 129:

Turn down research to build cash, again. 2 turns to complete Hyper-Link.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro, Laertes, Ymar - more hiding. Except that Laertes seems to have run out of hiding spots, so two Zuul cruisers find the scout and crush it. I believe the Ravenous class of ship to be a Barrage CR - this one was sporting Disruptor Torpedoes.

Galifrey - DownSouth fleet meets the Zuul who ran this way. Strangely, they seem to have a CNC... I thought I had destroyed all of those? Oh well. All 7 enemy CRs are destroyed in exchange for 2 DEs.

Tunguska - a tanker-scout arrives to find a Zuul world and multiple ships. It is unable to retreat before the planet missile - singular - arrives and blows it up.

Turn 130:

UpNorth and DownNorth fleets are merged into a single North Fleet, along with some reinforcement DEs and two shiny new CR CNCs. A new battle line is established, and they are dispatched to Octans. A pair of R&S cruisers is commissioned to follow them into battle (and a few more War DEs).

Reinforcements are still building for a similar reorganization of UpSouth Fleet at Pentacon.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro, Ymar - more hiding (hopefully).

Galifrey - the only remaining enemy ship is the Rip Bore. AR to finish it off.

Turn 131:

Hyper-Link Communications completes on schedule. I am reluctant to commit us to Fusion at 13 turns with 100% research; I elect to go for Integrated Sensors instead.

Scouts are dispatched to the last two unscouted systems; UpSouth reorganizes around the new CNC ship. Most of this fleet appears to be tankers... but enough combat ships are found to fill out the line and the fleet is dispatched to Dosadi.

DownSouth Fleet is sent to Aditi, where new CNC ships and repair vessels are being built.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro, Ymar - hide-n-seek redux.

Turn 132:

An 11-ship enemy fleet is detected heading for Kreelar from Laertes. UpSouth Fleet diverts to take care of the problem.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro, Ymar - we hide in the rocks.

Octans - 57 DEs and 2 CRs meet 7 DEs, 2 CRs, and two full sat rings. The planet is reduced, all enemy ships are destroyed, and part of the satellite defences are taken out. No ships are lost in this operation, and repair vessels are on the way.

Turn 133:

Integrated Sensors completes on schedule. I queue up Advanced Sensors at 4 turns (about 80% research).

A thorough perusal of the sensor logs reveals that one enemy ship did not participate in the battle at Octans, and remains at large. Fresh ships are shuffled into line in place of damaged ones, and the fleet prepares to reengage. Settlers and garrison ships are ordered at Scaramouche to support the initial advance.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro, Ymar - hidey-hidey-hidey-ho.

Kreelar - 11 incoming cruisers, 4 of which are CNC. I think I'll focus on the mainline ships first.

Octans - we hunt down and kill the DE, then treat the satellites with similar disregard.

Turn 134:

Kreelar sustained some damage in the attack (15M Imperials, all 90k Civs, 2.03 infra, 7.18 CH), but all 11 attacking CRs were destroyed for a loss of 4 DEs. Reinforcements are ordered for the fleet.

A colony ship is ordered to land at Octans, since the fleet already had them available. Garrison ships will be coming along in a few turns.

Interturn:

Kanjar Ro - the scout decides to head-butt an asteroid out of the way, sustaining damage in the process. It then hides behind the potato-moon and waits out the combat.

Ymar - just hanging out by an asteroid...

Turn 135:

I dispatch the extra settlers and garrison ships from Scaramouche to Octans, and repair A01 North Fleet. All else is left for the following player.

Observations

We have the wherewithal to build a few - I stress *few* - all cruiser fleets. Unfortunately, our best production systems are all up North, and our major area of engagement is to the South. This is going to make getting them into action a long, tedious process. I felt it was better to improve our existing fleets with CR CNC and R&S ships, since they seem to be doing well against the enemy cruisers as it is; we take fewer casualties with a larger fleet (spread fire and point-defence being our biggest saving graces). One-to-one exchanges of our DEs for their CRs is pretty favorable to us, and in many battles I did better than that. :)

Fusion is in reach - 13 turns at 100% isn't bad. Red Zuul now have Fusion so they're going to be faster; watch out for surprise attacks. I haven't seen any evidence of Fusion-era weapons. They are mounting Plasma Cannon on a number of ships, so they might have Fusion Cannons soon.
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:10 am

I have the save. I'd like to poll the team's opinion before I start, though.

This game has seen our empire take a pretty weird path, all things considered. We have an expansive empire due to all the Zuul surrenders, but our budget doesn't reflect it, as we've skipped all trade and biotechnology techs. It feels very odd to be trying to cover an empire this size with only 3 fleets, even if they do each include a large number of destroyers. Not to mention trying to aggressively push the Zuul on top of that. So I am thinking, this game is a bit unconventional already, maybe adding another unusual element might not be a problem this time around.

We seem to be relying fairly heavily on our Hiver allies for extra defensive presence away from our main fleets, which are largely sticking close to home. How do you guys feel about our Hiver ally's participation so far? I'm considering playing a set of turns as the Hivers rather than as the Tarka. Upside is our allies get to expand a lot and become even more useful -- potentially more on attack as well as defending. Downside is the AI will mess with our ship designs, though we will probably start afresh once we get Fusion and Shaped Hyperfields anyway. I would add that it will mess with our fleets too, but we only have 3 of them. The AI might decide to build trade or research fusion and it should get a hard AI bonus if it does. Of course we lose the benefit of having a human intelligence guiding the Tarka for the round, so we might suffer a reversal or two.

Does this seem like a reasonable thing to do, or should I stick to forging ahead with the Tarka?

In the latter case, I think we need to (collectively) sort out our logistics strategy. Normally I would have a lot more than 3 fleets going at once for an empire this size -- having so few fleets limits our ability both to act and to react. The major problem of course is that our fleets are slow, which similarly restricts our operational tempo. Fusion and Shaped Hyperfields should definitely be a priority.

We have over 6 million credits banked, so it's not like we can't afford more fleets, but previous comments about lack of production in the south illustrate the problem. The statement that we don't have production in the south isn't strictly true -- we just don't have a lot of single high production forge worlds. However, since we don't have trade and don't have freighter routes eating up I/O at non-forge worlds, we do have a lot of aggregate production capacity. Still, having slow fleets also makes assembling distributed production into capable fleets more of a hassle than it might otherwise be. Picking up Asteroid Mining would help identify and promote some forge worlds to serve as construction focal points, of course. And getting Fusion will reduce the construction cost of our ships, albeit while also making them more expensive and probably ensuring income becomes the bottleneck, rather than production.

Normally I would be thinking of building a lot more fleets in order to be able to both attack and defend simultaneously and at multiple points. I'd probably consider splitting up our current fleets into smaller, more flexible units if they could coordinate more effectively (i.e. were considerably faster) and I had more current direct experience with how our fleets were faring in battle. But if we are going for Fusion/Shaped Hyperfields right away, then this is not a good time to be spending big chunks of that 6 million credits on stuff that's about to go obsolete.

This might be an argument in favour of turning over the reins to the AI for 10 turns -- I am pretty sure it won't make big inroads into our credit balance in the pursuit of Fusion, both due to its bonuses and due to its preference to maintain a credit surplus. Then we can spend a lot of cash on new fleets once Fusion and Shaped Hyperfields come in... assuming, of course, that the AI chooses to research them.

Thoughts?
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Starknight
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by Starknight » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:45 am

I think that might not be a bad idea; there's at least 3 good candidates for the Hivers to colonize (less than 30 CH to them) which they already have gated. With Hiver growth rates, it won't take them too long to become useful.

OTOH, we definitely have the momentum to finish off this game now, I suspect. The Hivers are doing a pretty good job of expanding their gate network, and we have a solid core that's not really in danger of being invaded. Losing a few front-line systems isn't going to be fatal.

I suppose I could have been more aggressive about fleet-building, but putting a solid balance in the bank for building CRs struck me as more useful. Of course, once I realized that our newer DEs were able to stand up to the Zuul fairly well - with a large enough fleet - building combat CRs didn't seem quite so necessary. CR CNC + R&S - as long as we can retreat the damaged ships - should stand us in good stead for a while.
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The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by kjn » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:05 am

Yeah, the Hivers have really put in a subpar performance, but the Zuul aren't especially aggressive either.

I'd think I'd prefer to push on to Fusion (and possibly shaped hyper-fields) ASAP so we get some strategic mobility and then finish off the game. We have everything needed for decent CRs anyway.

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ivra
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ivra » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:32 pm

As Tarkas I think we should wait to build cruisers until we get Fusion and the corresponding drive. Picking up asteroid mining before Fusion + Drive will probably take almost no more time than going directly with Fusion + Drive. In a way it is almost cheating if we change to Hiver to get the AI to research Fusion + Drive. Due to the research and money bonuses the AI will research it almost twice as fast as we can. So if we switch to Hivers, I kind of feel that we should complete the game as Hivers.

I am ok with anything, but I have a small preference for sticking with Tarkas until the game is done.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by Starknight » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:43 am

I will be incommunicado from 7/18 to 7/24, so whatever you decide to do, good luck with it. I'll catch you on the flip side.
My Morrigi fleet-speed calculator for SotS Prime
The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
Currently working on getting my board game Dragon Raiders into final condition before going to Kickstarter...

ZedF
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Re: SotS1-SG16

Post by ZedF » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:57 am

Sounds like folks would prefer not to give the Hivers a leg up, so I will continue with the Tarka over the weekend.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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