SotS SG18

Tactics and Action Reports.
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ivra
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ivra » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:31 pm

Ok, I will take my turns now.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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ivra
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ivra » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:34 pm

Turn 30
I will send out our swarm killer fleet next turn since it lacks a gate. Then it will be given the task of taking out the swarm at Taza'chak.

Turn 31
... or the swarm at Uxor, which was found this turn. The Planet Uxor is habitable so it makes sense to go there first.

Turn 32 & 33
Found a nice small planet that I will colonize right away: Andor; Size 1; CH=116.

Turn 34-36
Andor colonized. The swarm at Taza'chat is sending a silicoid queen towards our colony at Nekek'tet. Since the first swarm killer fleet is underway towards Uxor a new one must be constructed to take care of the queen. Fortunately Nekek'tet is fully developed.

Turn 37-39
Constructing A02 SwarmKillers. I created it identical to A01 SwarmKillers, but then I noticed that the swarm at Uxor is sending a Silicoid Queen towards Cuthbert. Luckily the two queens will not arrive at the same turn, but I will add some more ships to the second fleet to compensate for not being able to repair ships and to losses.

Turn 40
A02 SwarmKillers is ready to attack the Silicoid Queen coming to Cuthbert next turn. It must then head over to Nekek'tet to defend our colony the turn after. Nekek'tet has built 10 LD just in case. Ah, and Biological Transfer went overbudget, currently at 101%. Also note that all the extra tankers are parked at our HW.

Question:
How do you handle VN at planets without a colony? I normally place a VN garrison fleet at them to avoid losing the gate there, but I have not done so in this game.

Maybe we three should just continue this game until we hear from Abyss? In that case go ahead Starknight.

SG 18-040.sav
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Starknight
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by Starknight » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:05 pm

ivra wrote:Question:
How do you handle VN at planets without a colony? I normally place a VN garrison fleet at them to avoid losing the gate there, but I have not done so in this game.


Normally I just let them kill DD gates at worlds I haven't colonized yet (including dead worlds), then send another gate to rebuild the network. Usually by the time I have CR gates, they can destroy the probes if you do the fight manually, assuming they have APMDs, Energy Cannon, or similar in the medium mounts. (Missiles are worthless against VN probes, of course.)

I have the save, I can do the turns tonight. If we hear from Abyss sooner, I'll hold off posting results. :)
My Morrigi fleet-speed calculator for SotS Prime
The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
Currently working on getting my board game Dragon Raiders into final condition before going to Kickstarter...

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Starknight
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by Starknight » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:24 am

Turn 40:
Things are looking okay for now. I'm planning on Salvage Tech next (so we can have repair capability in our fleets) and FTL Economics if I have time, so we can build our economy.

I decide to let the Swarm invest Cuthbert; we can clear them out later, when we're ready to settle the world. It's more important to defend Nekek'tet - the risk of losing the gate and not being able to respond is too high. A02 renamed SwarmSlayers and sent off to Nekek'tet.

IT:
Cuthbert - the Swarm crush the gate. We'll kill them when we are ready. (I know we need to colonize this world. It'll be prioritized.)

Turn 41:
Gate-07 arrives at Ilmatar and finds a nice world - CH 131. Gate deployed, colonization plans made - using our new Biome colonizers! (Yes, the tech literally came in at just the right moment.) BiomeCR .5r01 World-makers are now ready to plant new colonies wherever we need them.

IT:
Nekek'tet - the Swarm Queen arrives, our fleet is ready to intercept. Once the drones are down (we lost one GLasDD), I retreat the PD ships in favor of the Soldier MassDDs and we pound the Queen into spacedust.

Turn 42:
Gate-04 arrives at Ymar. It's our next best colony prospect at this time, since we don't have the AM hacked yet at Aaryn. I queue up Biomes and a garrison. Rizketep completes infrastructure, terraforming will finish in two turns.

A02 SwarmSlayers are dispatched to clear Taza'chak, 12 turns until arrival.

Turn 43:
Colony landed on Ilmatar. Fleet dispatched to Ymar.

Turn 44:
Remaining Biomes sent to Ymar. New fleet queued to colonize Ozoris.

Turn 45:
Fleet dispatched to Ozoris; follow-up Biomes next turn.

Turn 46:
Follow-up ships sent. Queueing fleet for Pyzak'tot.

IT:
Uxor - A01 SwarmKillers arrives. We wipe out the Swarm with no losses, just a bit of damage.

Turn 47:
Gate-01 arrives at Garnet, a dead world. Gate deployed, as well as the one at Uxor. Uxor proves to be a cH 250 size-2. The projected fleet for Pyzak'tot is repurposed for Uxor.

IT:
Andor - VN visit. The garrison ships shoot down the probes.

Turn 48:
Salvage Tech comes in. I start FTL Econ. I design the RepairCR .6r01 Worker, and queue one up for A01, which is on it's way back to Xheketchis for repairs and a replacement gate.

Turn 49:
A01 SwarmKillers, reinforced by the R&S ship, is sent off to Cuthbert (10 turns). Colonists are ordered to land at Uxor.

Turn 50:
I count 5 more worlds to settle before we can send out more discovery/gate fleets. Aaryn, of course, is waiting on the AM hacking to complete; Cuthbert needs the Swarm cleared from it. The other 3 can be colonized at will. A01 will arrive at Cuthbert in 9 turns, A02 to Taza'chak in 4 to contest the Swarm occupation of our clusters.

We should have enough warning if a new Swarm Queen heads towards one of our worlds to create a new fleet to stand against it, although cash might be a little tight. Then again, I'd rather lose a bit of morale dipping into our financial reserves than lose a world. And if we're lucky, we won't have to worry about it until we can get A02 back into play.

We seem to have gotten lucky - only 8 out of 22 worlds in these two clusters are out of our initial habitability range, and at least three of those are useable if we get GA. (Not sure about Taza'chak yet.) That's a pretty nice economy to start with, and with trade it can only get better. We should probably mine out Octans, Garnet, Iszm and Ne'xhex once we get Asteroid Mining, to discourage any other races from settling there.
My Morrigi fleet-speed calculator for SotS Prime
The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
Currently working on getting my board game Dragon Raiders into final condition before going to Kickstarter...

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ivra
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ivra » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:00 am

Regarding the swarm situation at Cuthbert where you decided to retreat. You could have used the auto-resolve you know, it never kills off the gate. I think it would have been ok to fight it manually as well. Parking the fleet in front of the gate seems to work in my experience. Another possibility was to split the fleet in two since it was quite big and send about half of the ships back to Nekek'tet in case the gate was destroyed. Nekek'tet could then have built ships for one turn before the battle there. I didn't thought of that myself at the time, thus the one big fleet. But no matter, the swarm at Cuthbert will be taken care of before we are ready for a new wave of discovery fleets anyway.

I see you had put the terraforming sliders to almost 100% infrastructure also on high CH colonies such as Ozoris, Ymar, and Uxor. The agreed upon optimal way of doing it is to grow just enough infrastructure and use the remainder for terraforming, but that is cumbersome to do in practice since it requires some calculations and adjustments each turn. From a lot of experiments I know that the method I use is close to optimal. It is quite easy to do even if it requires checking in on the colonies each turn. It is as simple as setting the sliders to focus on terraforming (100% or almost 100%) as long as the IO number is red, and focusing on infrastructure as long as the IO number is white. You know this, don't you? What is your reason to set it as you did? This is not meant as a negative critique, I am just curious, that is all.

Since we still haven't heard from Abyss, you're up next, ZedF.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ZedF » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:10 pm

Ok I have the save.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

ZedF
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ZedF » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:21 pm

Killed the swarm off of known worlds.

Settled a couple colonies, with more to come. This was my main focus this turn as we need to start exploring more. I did not emphasize tech too much. FTL Economics came in but I did not start trading yet since I was putting most of our money toward biomes. We have only 3 worlds remaining to colonize but 1 has a col fleet enroute and a second col fleet is near done. Then we just need the AM hack to finish so we can colonize that world.

Hopefully the next player will be able to build up a big exploration wave so we can start trading after that.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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ivra
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ivra » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:25 am

I'm on it.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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ivra
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ivra » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:02 am

Turn 60
I started Atmospheric Adaption, but I am not putting much money into it. I am also moving a g02 fleet to Pyzak'tot, the last planet we need to colonize in case the VN shows up before it is colonized.

Turn 61-65
I am building gates and tankers to create ships for our new discovery wave. I am also moving them into position so that they are ready to leave right away. Last two planets colonized. Waiting for the AM research to come in. I am not able to use all money on gate/tankers so I started up a few trade routes.

Turn 66
Raiders hit Rizketep. The garrison and one freighter was lost, but will be replaced immediately. The AM research was finally done. Moving the gate fleet in to gate and colonize Aaryn.

Turn 67-69
Colonizing Aaryn and making final preparations for the new wave.

Turn 70
Atmospheric Adaption came in, and oops, I forgot that Atmospheric Adaption increases our CH tolerance by 75. We need to colonize one more planet before we can launch. So instead of launching them this turn we have to wait until turn 73 to launch them (or turn 74 if we get hit by a colonizing trap). Sorry about that.
I have ordered ships for colonizing Shoni and moved all of the discovery fleets into position. There are in total 55 of them ready to head for the 5 nearest pyramids. I have not selected a new research project.

SG 18-070.sav
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Starknight
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by Starknight » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:58 pm

Still no word from Abyss? I guess I'm up next, then.
My Morrigi fleet-speed calculator for SotS Prime
The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
Currently working on getting my board game Dragon Raiders into final condition before going to Kickstarter...

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ivra
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ivra » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:12 pm

Yes, go for it!

I just want to inform both of you that I am going away for two short trips. The first one is from Friday July 29th to Sunday July 31th. The second is from Wednesday August 3rd to Wednesday August 10th. I will play my turns before, between and after these trips, but feel free to skip me if you want to progress the game while I am away.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Starknight
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by Starknight » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:25 pm

Research Terraforming Bacteria. It comes in turn 78, go for Advanced Robotics to reduce ship costs in the future. It goes overbudget on turn 80.

Drop one Biome at Shoni, leave others for after it successfully lands. Full colonization fleet landed turn 75.

Gate fleets launched turn 73. Earliest arrival is turn 99.

Build more freighters to get our economy up.

Build and launch another 11 gate fleets to put a few more options on the table. Last arrival is at turn 155. (Of course we can still launch fleets until the first of this wave arrives at turn 99...)

No encounters with the VN this turnset.
My Morrigi fleet-speed calculator for SotS Prime
The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
Currently working on getting my board game Dragon Raiders into final condition before going to Kickstarter...

ZedF
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ZedF » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:34 am

Techs completed on this turn: Advanced Robotics, Asteroid Mining, Mega Stripmining, Environmental Tailoring.
Planning to head to Polysilicate Alloys and Arcology next, followed by Grav Adaptation. Then, I dunno... Fusion maybe? Or we could belatedly get Deep Scan.

We have a pair of mining fleets (Mining 01 and Mining 02) and a trio of refineries (Canary 01 - Canary 03) designed just to refine at iceballs and make sure it's safe for our mining fleets to go to work. Naturally we will drop minerals at the homeworld.

Built and deployed a bunch more gate fleets and freighters. Sectors where freighters are being built are ones I have been doing so recently, whereas sectors where freighters are not being built have been building gate fleets (and, more recently, mining fleets.)

Looking at our rankings, this should be a trivially easy win for us. In fact the game so far has not been very interesting as we are just building economy and have no contact with rivals or any real competition. This is a problem that can often happen when maps are set up too large and AI empires are not given enough of a head start and advantages to make things at least modestly challenging. The following factors contribute to this:
  • Large amount of stars per player - humans can vastly out expand AI so lots of expansion room favours player
  • Single planet AI empires - restricts AI ability to expand effectively due to less economy, I/O, jumping off points
  • Normal difficulty - requires AI to have substantial other economy bonuses to be competitive with player, but it doesn't here
  • Normal economy settings - doesn't allow the AI to multiply bonuses from higher difficulty settings or advanced start
I think we would have needed at least some of these in order for this game to be anything other than a walkover. Regardless, the save file is attached if people want to continue. But lacking challenge and our 4th player makes me feel like we are just marking time here.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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ivra
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ivra » Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:53 am

I agree. I was too afraid of our restrictions. I think we need to put a limit on how many discovery fleets we are allowed to send out. For instance we can send out 10 discovery fleets. Then everything must be colonized before we are allowed to send out 10 new ones. This will achieve the goal of limiting our expansion.

To this end I have created a new map that you can take a look at. Would this be more fun?


SG 18b

Players: Starknight, Abyss, Zed , Ivra

The setup is as follows:
  • 120 stars Sphere with default start parameters, except:
  • All slots are at $1'000'000, 3 colonies, and 15 techs
  • normal AI
  • 6 players, no teams. The AIs are one of each race (except Hiver)
Variant restrictions:
  • A discovery fleet is a fleet that is heading towards an undiscovered planet (bright colored star).
  • A wave of discovery fleets consists of 10 discovery fleets that must be sent out during a single turn.
  • After that we have to wait until they arrive and colonize everything we can live on before sending out a new wave of discovery fleets.
  • Notice that all discovered habitable planets (planet color) must be colonized before we can send out a new wave of discovery fleets, even if we lost control of it.
  • Notice that black stars (where we lost a battle) can be disregarded. But also notice that we are free to send out any fleet to such a black star at any time, be it an enemy colony or not.
SG 18b_001.sav
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

ZedF
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Re: SotS SG18

Post by ZedF » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:15 am

Dropping from 25 stars per player to 20 and changing to sphere is an improvement, but I am concerned that we will still run into a similar problem in the early going, that being nothing to do except quietly build economy while we wait for contact to be made with neighbors. This is exacerbated by the limit of 10 ship exploration waves which make it harder for us to find someone to interact with, so we should do more to make it easier for the AI empires to interact with us.

I get that the goal of the 10 ship limit and the 'must colonize everything' rule is to slow down exploration and expansion, but that kind of runs counter to the fun of the game, which is interacting with other races, usually violently. in principle, for the 'must colonize everything' rules you need a big enough map for there to be multiple waves, but in order for there to be some kind of space control action going on you still need to establish contact in a reasonable amount of time. These two imperatives might be tricky to marry together in the same game without some further rules changes. We might want to consider changing the rules to focus more on limiting how much we can colonize at once, rather than on how much we can explore at once.

if the player starts with 3 planets I would give the AI empires 6-8 starting colonies since we should be smarter than the AI. This is still not very challenging if these are normal AIs and we are not on reduced economy settings. If we want to stick with a limit of 10 exploration fleets then I would drop to at most 15 stars per player on sphere. If we want a bigger map so there are more exploration waves then we probably need to remove the 10 ship limit and replace it with something else.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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