Bastard Sword of the Stars 3.0.2

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Alpha Centauri
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:07 pm

Here's a thought - a specialized mission section that uses an unused mount type to allow a rapid-fire missile launcher...

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by SpardaSon21 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:01 pm

I don't know if missile weapons allow salvos like a more traditional weapon, but if they do, could easily create a box launcher turret that fires four missiles one right after the other, and then a double mount version as well, and do that for both normal and heavy missiles, in fast and the potential armored variant.

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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by SpardaSon21 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:08 pm

It is very, very hard to compare SotS naval combat to actual naval combat since SotS over-emphasizes what would be the secondaries in that (medium mounts) over the main gun batteries (large mounts). It gets even harder to compare when you consider secondaries also see use as dual-purpose AA guns thanks to airburst shells of one kind or another, and that's dubious at best in SotS. Another axe against that is the fact that a large mount is not of a significantly increased caliber compared to a medium mount secondary, ships needing to utilize a projector section to create a large size disparity between main cannon caliber and secondary caliber. Any attempt to have SotS combat adhere to conventional naval norms would need to address these issues, radically altering the combat mechanics. Note, that is all WW2 naval combat. Modern naval combat involves significantly more electronic warfare and other spoofing, the main cannons have been downgraded to five-inch autoloaders for use as a last-ditch dual-purpose weapon, and the main weaponry is long-range missiles of one kind or another, and heavy usage of CIWS, EW, and decoys to stop them from impacting.

Now, SotS combat and by connection, BSotS combat can be adjusted to either of these norms, but it cannot be adjusted to both. A heavy emphasis on ranged missile firepower will necessitate greatly enhanced sensor ranges as well as a reduction to a jammer section's ability to completely blank out an area from any BVR weapons lock, missile or cannon, and Wild Weasel will need to become much more common than it currently is. This also has the very annoying issue of battles being fought entirely in the sensors manager, with zero visual confirmation of the targets and a corresponding lack of pretty eyecandy explosions for players to look at. While this is realistic, I don't particularly think its fun to watch.

The alternative to that is to double-down on SotS's already existing WW2 slant and completely re-do the ship sections and the available weapons to more closely resemble the contemporary weapons and caliber differences of the times, with destroyers mounting smalls and mediums, cruisers mounting small, mediums, and larges, and dreadnoughts mounting smalls, mediums, and instead of larges, projector mount weapons that are of absolutely massive size compared to a cruiser's large mount main batteries, as seen in WW2 when a heavy cruiser's eight inch cannons with a length of 50 calibers or so are compared to a battleship's 16-inch cannons, also with a caliber length of 45-50 calibers, and with much, much greater powder loads compared to heavy cruiser cannons. The main downside I see here is that dreadnoughts will unequivocally rule the combat arena due to size, toughness, and firepower, capable of utterly dismissing destroyer and cruiser swarms as realistic threats, but then again BSotS is kinda like this already, so I see no real issues.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:07 pm

Everyone brings their own aesthetics and sensibilities and desires to a game. Some want sots to look darker and more serious - use more future science instead of science fiction - while others want a Star Trek feel, or (me) a Star Fleet Battles[tm] feel. Or Babylon V, or Battlestar Galactica, etc.

SOTS is amazing - by far and away the best "ships in space" simulator - despite the endless caveats about unrealistic and handwavium. The fact that there is a [primitive] physics engine that dictates how things actually works in practices is light-years ahead of all competition in this space. Every other space game I play feels childish in its combat engine. SOTS has ruined me! ;)

Okay - that went somewhere unintended! :P

My point is I'm bringing my aesthetic to this game - while trying to keep it as open as I can for others to imagine their own stories of space exploration and conquest. Drages - you have a more WW2 or WW3 aesthetic, perhaps. And insofar as I can incorporate ideas you may have that remain flexible for all players - I'm open! But when an idea dictates that all ships have to have a certain weapon-type? That is one of the *biggest* reasons I picked up my pen and started editing sots in the first place. I don't like the idea that everyone must use missiles on a certain % of their mounts - so I eliminated missile-only mounts in the very first version of my mod (7+ years ago).

I can see offering a projector based vertical launch mount - or a heavy vertical launch mount that the player can *choose* - but not a mount that forces this decision. The fun - for me - is in making meaningful (read: consequential) decisions. If that is reduced - the fun in the game is reduced.

I can see having a dedicated specialized section that the player can unlock that has lots of mounts that are vertical-missile only. That would be very cool. But... not going to reduce player's choices on existing general=purpose sections.

That's my philosophy in a nutshell. So... let's talk more about what a specialized section might look like - and choose a test race for it - and see if we can tempt warcat into modelling it - and we'll drop it in and see how it plays.

NOTE: this is a lot of work - weapon files - turrets - shipsection - tech - tech tree - maybe effects - game-balance - bugs, So all of that has to be balanced against its value. One idea I've been toying with is to make one race missile-based - such as Humans. They would start with guaranteed small missiles (no other small weapon) and then having their ships have more missile-centric designs would make sense. But... one reason I've hesitated is because that makes them more specialized - and reduces their appeal to non-missile lovers...

Other ideas / directions to go include:
* Frigates (single section DEs)
* Heavy DEs (double mission section DEs)
* Heavy CRs (double mission section)
* Tarkas like DN Carriers for the other races
* Fighters (this would make most sense if we could have a true carrier design with launch bay)
** fighters could be used by smaller physical races - Hiver & Human - in place of drones (mostly as a visual thing)
* More dual weapons - dual large beams - dual emitters - ... ?
* Triple weapons ?!
* Mine-turret - I'd love to be able to add mine-laying as a general option to any ship!

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by SpardaSon21 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:14 pm

I too would like to see ships get VLS tubes in addition to their already existing weaponry, as well as PD/Missile/DS Aegis mission sections for Cruisers, as well as PD/Missile/EWar Aegis mission sections for DN's. Currently if you want missiles you have to sacrifice a lot of your ship's main firepower to fit them, and they don't really do all that well in terms of DPS or range compared to the rest of the weapons, especially once PD is factored in.

And drages, keep in mind cruiser sections get shields, so a potential thing to consider for enhanced cruiser usage is single-section battlecruiser designs with integral shield generators and enhanced HP over a standard three-section cruiser. The reason it would be a single section is so individual sections cannot be destroyed, but rather the entire ship's HP pool needs to be eliminated, just like a dreadnought.

And yes, double-size DN, CR, and DE sections would be lovely, and hopefully core parts of the engineering tree.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:24 am

damn - I didn't think of shields ... how to deal with those for double DE or double CR? prolly can't :(

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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Warcat » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:51 am

Shields are 3d model themselves. Of course to fit them into double section DEs/CRs they need to be scaled up a bit, so it will end up that for single section DEs/CRs they may be too big. Unfortunately the model assignation is hardcoded IMO, so there's no way to use the same model for different shield version into the same hull class. However scaling up shields by 33% could be acceptable and may solve the problem. Of course I need testing to see if I'm able to model a shield (I guess yes, but I need practice).

Returning to the main discussion, I'd like the idea to make the projector mount as the DN main gun. So DEs will have lots of smalls and some mediums, CRs lots of mediums and spinals, some heavies and dedicated sections for smalls and projectors, DNs (and LVs) lots of heavies, spinals and projectors, few mediums and smalls, and occasionally... siege weapons.
BTW we need to keep an eye to what AI will do after that changes: we know that it usually ignores smaller class, so I fear that making DNs with little to none smalls will make them too much weak against vectors like drones, torpedoes, mines and missiles. Meh, I think I'll need some aid in modelling all the new stuff... :(
I agree with Sparda when he states that SotS must be more enjoyable/eye candy than realistic and with Alpha. I dislike the idea to have missile only mounts: I consider them a waste, because a couple of missiles are just an annoying fly which a decent pd coverage can easily neutralize. So what's the point to have just only few of them? To make them worth, there's need to saturate pd coverage with vectors, so it's better to design an heavy missile vessel, which make to have dedicated missile only hardpoints redundant. Of course I could make a missile mount to resemble a VLS tube (even if it cannot be fit into the ship's hull, it could be equally acceptable if the modeler makes a good job). BTW in my game AI is mixing missiles with different weapon types into its designs, so designing ships with single weapon type on them is mostly an human player choice.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:04 pm

When it comes to the general gist of "DNs should have more heavies" - I'm good with this idea. I definitely agree.

Mostly - when I play sots - I use cruisers. They're better cost-effective, and more interesting (to me). I like DE pretty well too. DNs are expensive as hell, and don't normally perform better than CRs - so they seem pretty lame (other than they look cool).

Maybe Warcat and I can work towards making them the kings they should be. So far in BSOTs - I have enhanced the DNs a little (mostly fixing mount types, and firing arcs, and make them less sluggish) - but I haven't really analyzed how many and types of turrets they have. Warcat and I did do such an analysis on cruisers for BSOTS 2.0 - and we improved some of the worst designs to be more competitive (Hiver - I'm looking squarely at you).

Drages or Sparda or anyone - if you want to help move this along - build a spreadsheet that shows DN sections by race with how many small/med/large/projector/fixed-beam/torpedo mounts and HP they each have.

We can do a comparison and improve these designs with an eye to balance if we can see them all side-by-side. You might even include that same data for the CR equivalent section by race - so Liir DN War vs. Liir CR War.

I would love for DNs to be scary again. To me they're a lol- see how fast they burn!

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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:58 pm

drages wrote:I can help with making a spreadsheet. Where can i find that info at game files?

I found the section infos, but i do not know which is which at sots as the name on files and at the game. Where can i see that?

I like big ships, so i can work on their weapons and stats on paper.

All of this is in the species\[RACE]\sections\DN[type].shipsection

They're just text files - tell windows to always open with a good text editor - TextPad or Notepad++ are good choices.

"health" is HP

for mounts - you have to count them up - e.g.:

Code: Select all

   bank
   {
      turretclass standard
      turretsize medium

      mount
      {
         node MediumGunNode01
         min_inclination -5
         max_inclination 90
         min_azimuth -70
         max_azimuth 90
      }

      mount
      {
         node MediumGunNode02
         min_inclination -5
         max_inclination 90
         min_azimuth -70
         max_azimuth 90
      }
   }


Means "a weapon bank containing two medium standard weapon mounts"

You just have to ignore the number of banks, and care about the number and type of actual mounts (medium/large/small/beam/etc.)

Alpha Centauri
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:57 pm

Hey! I just realized - I'm having a blast playing BSOTS 2.0! :D

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by SpardaSon21 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:47 pm

Here is where the SotS wiki moved from the Rorschach hosting. If you look up a type of section, say, a War Section, the mounts, HP, and other stats are all compiled in a nice table format, and in all three sizes, and for all races that have that section.

Additionally drages, my ideas about removing all larges from dreadnoughts and replacing them with projectors, with a fair amount of mediums comes from the idea of the "dreadnought battleship" where large numbers of mixed batteries are traded for fewer, heavier batteries, which is what every single battleship design after the HMS Dreadnought was. The "secondary" mediums comes from the smaller broadside cannons mounted on later battleships for close defense against fast, nimble ships, as demonstrated by the Iowas and their 10 five inch cannons per side. So, in my representation of how SotS ships should be equipped, the small mounts would be AA and various other CIWS, the mediums the 5 inch and 6 inch cannons found as destroyer main cannons and cruiser and battleship secondaries, larges would be the about eight inch cannons mounted on a heavy cruiser as main cannons, and finally projectors the massive double digit battleship cannons.

Obviously, there should be beams, ballistics, energy cannons, and missiles suitable for all mount sizes, and as both drages and I stated earlier Alpha Centauri, the basic missile should at least be a two-shot system and preferably a four-shot box design, since a modern warship never fires just one missile.

EDIT: A good example of what drages and I are looking for can be found in TrashMan's Phoenix mod, which is a total shipset conversion of SolForce based more along traditional naval combat, with a very large amount of well-placed mounts and special battleship sections designed purely around massive firepower.

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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:47 pm

D'oh - I should have looked at the wiki! :oops: :roll:

Thanks for the feedback and ideas. I'll take a look at the Phoenix mod. Maybe there is an option for swapping out Humans for his version as a mod-mod (similar to my no-planet-missiles)?

(by having a blast - drages - I mean I'm really enjoying *playing* (b)sots. ;) )

Making DNs with projector mounts - and adding weapons for projector mounts as super-heavy versions of various missiles is cool.

Increasing the missile mounts to be duals always... can do. Prolly just let folks unlock that, since it's already there. I can increase their fire rate - it's pretty low right now. That could be an upgrade path (the idea of fast missiles was to make them more able to dodge PD, but maybe they need more speed still, or a faster launch rate, or...).

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by SpardaSon21 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:10 am

drages wrote:Full projector without heavy slots.. would be very powerful and would kill any cruiser in a second. This will erase all the cruiser late game play, it would be not wise.

Even biggest battleships in human history got 3-4 huge cannons, so for sots like game play, 5 projector maybe 6 would be enough. But even the basic DN should somehow 3 projector. There is no front or rear section with projector now. I just don't want DPS freak DN's. I am making the sheets now and the human DN weapon numbers are really pathetic more then i guessed. Full of mediums and smalls. Every DN combination nearly got 16+ small mount and think those with phaser PD... bahhh.. We need to cut small and medium turrets for sure. Projectors should be very slow turn and fire rate but huge dps. I try to balance with DN vs cruiser or DE's too.

For projectors we can put something like rail cannons. I could not test the rail cannons at bsots, so i can't say something about them. But huge cannons 1/2 barrel for projector slots would be good.. Of course we can have triple yamato cannons there too.. but for that kind of huge weapon we should have leviathan class sized ships. DN's are not so huge compared to leviathans...

Ideas, ideas...

How is what you're proposing any different that what I was? 5, 6 Projector Dreadnoughts? 3 minimum, plus any large mounts?

EDIT:
Alpha Centauri wrote:D'oh - I should have looked at the wiki! :oops: :roll:

Thanks for the feedback and ideas. I'll take a look at the Phoenix mod. Maybe there is an option for swapping out Humans for his version as a mod-mod (similar to my no-planet-missiles)?

(by having a blast - drages - I mean I'm really enjoying *playing* (b)sots. ;) )

Making DNs with projector mounts - and adding weapons for projector mounts as super-heavy versions of various missiles is cool.

Increasing the missile mounts to be duals always... can do. Prolly just let folks unlock that, since it's already there. I can increase their fire rate - it's pretty low right now. That could be an upgrade path (the idea of fast missiles was to make them more able to dodge PD, but maybe they need more speed still, or a faster launch rate, or...).

TrashMan's Phoenix models would need AM era drive tech sections made, as that isn't in the tech tree for them. He also did a lot of mount type rearranging, so you'd need to fix that, as well.

Well, the main idea I was proposing for missiles was for the launcher to use the volley mechanics, if possible, to fire one, then with a slight delay fire a second, so a dual mount would actually fire four, with a staggered arrival between launches to cause PD issues.

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by SpardaSon21 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:52 am

Well, I think we're both arguing in favor of a similar number of projectors, only I'm advocating removing your larges to make dreadnoughts actual dreadnoughts.

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Re: Bastard Sword of the Stars 2.0a! (updated)

Post by Alpha Centauri » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:57 am

SpardaSon21 wrote:Well, the main idea I was proposing for missiles was for the launcher to use the volley mechanics, if possible, to fire one, then with a slight delay fire a second, so a dual mount would actually fire four, with a staggered arrival between launches to cause PD issues.

This is utterly doable.

I believe that I had to do this for the current dual-fire missiles because I had not true dual-mounts for them.

but I can easily have them launch 2 or 4 in a quick staggered succession.

This changes the balance of power - so that's the bigger question - makes more sense for these to arrive as advancements later in fusion or early antimatter age, so as not to totally upset the power in the early game, which seems reasonable to me.

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