BSOTS 2.5a (Official BSots Thread)

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by SpardaSon21 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:39 pm

I left small mounts out of the equation since you're hard to be a king of the battlefield if you need to worry about getting poked to death by missile volleys, even with your massive HP.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:58 pm

Yet this should be a counter to DN's : missile CRs kiting them. (But not so effective that they can kill the DNs before those can severely damage the planet.)

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Alpha Centauri » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:25 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:Yet this should be a counter to DN's : missile CRs kiting them. (But not so effective that they can kill the DNs before those can severely damage the planet.)

That seems like an okay proposition.

You have options -
DNs + CRs - especially using Escorts (full on PD).
EWAR DNs
EWAR CRs (BSOTS)
WW DEs
Gravity mines (maybe mounted on drones) - which attract tracking torpedos
drones with PD weapons

Also - DNs will have the huge mounts (projector weapons) with the best DF range in the game (BSOTS). So, sure, try to stand off and still get whacked by various turreted guns. :)

and that dance - between CRs and DNs sounds like a perfect unknown - can you pull it off against your opponent? Can you find the right mix?

I'm liking this more and more :)

puglebugle
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by puglebugle » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:45 pm

hi Alpha.

i like your changes, especially new photons names tech tree, stations and DNs :D (I like my flavour texts if you have implemented them in tech descriptions im happy :D)
(from Ngun point of view), I will not implement economy changes (I already did some things about stations and stuff...) and I will need to handpick DNs mounts and probably forgot about new triple barrel projectors (I have already rebalanced projectors and large weapons a bit and they are stronger in Ngun) but DNs are still a little too weak so its a very good idea to bring larger mounts to fight.

I wanted to tell you one thing:
i would recommend to implement these weapons to Bsots 2.5
(i made icons for them, some effects taken from ACM (Okim not responding, I hope he doesnt care.))
In order to implement to Bsots scale down their DPS (damage per second by 2.5 times and bring range down by about 1000, and up accuracy, more for projectors and large mounts, if you are interested I can provide you exact data from my text file (how to make them fit and balanced for Bsots))

Gattling auto-lasers (medium mount, already told you about them)
253 las_auto_basicNgun.weapon
254 las_auto_improvedNgun.weapon
255 las_auto_uvNgun.weapon
256 las_auto_uvNgundual.weapon

Deathray
Projector mounted Green Laser
(low range, very big damage vs population)
257 las_deathrayNgun.weapon

Macross Missile Massacre
Assault mounted swarm mini missiles (dont have nice turret model)
265 mis_circusNgun.weapon
266 mis_circusfreeNgun.weapon

Particle Cannons/Artillery
Large and projector mounted shield penetrating energy (effect from ACM)
267 can_partNgun.weapon
268 can_partspinalNgun.weapon
269 can_partprojNgun.weapon

Crystalline Razor
Ultimate tech after phaser (effect from ACM, blue laser (I hope its not Xray))
270 las_crazorNgun.weapon

Then there are, (HV, tripleL, Lr missiles, spat torpedoes, mini gaus, ... and i have a few neat ideas which would fit nicelly )
Point is that if you are interested i could just divide some numbers in weapon files (I kept detailed changelog about weapon changes from Bsots so it would be easy to incorporate them back) assign new icons and weapon numbers, names from Ngun to Bsots 2.5 filestructure and talk about tech requirements and its done. (izi)

(And I have renamed cutting beam to multi-particle harmonic beam , doesnt matter what name but cutting beam sounds lame to me.)
Last edited by puglebugle on Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Realistic Combat/Naval Gunnery/TechTree Revision SubMod (v1.1) for Bsots (mod for Sots 1) http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=57039&p=555149#p555149

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by SpardaSon21 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:14 pm

Okim said ages ago that we're free to take what we want from ACM so long as we give credit.

EDIT: That includes the ship and turret models, if you feel like using any of them for BSotS.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Alpha Centauri » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:57 pm

Great, specific, helpful ideas puglebugle! Thank you.

I am in a Mass Effect Andromeda addiction cycle atm - ;)

Once that breaks, I'd like very much to integrate some or all of the weapons you suggest. I have lots of scripting tools to adjust files en mass - so I can handle that part with little effort.

Yeah, I needed to just be brutal about the DN mounts initially to get me past the overwhelming nature of this change (figuring it out bank by bank - would take me forever - so doing it en mass and then reverting some changes at some point more piecemeal seems far more practicable).

And as Sparda points out - ACM is fair game so long as you credit Okim - which I have done in my splash screen. (I have used very very little from him - a few turrets primarily - a couple of ship models for Human DE Repair and maybe something else). I do intend to take a few more of his things and integrate them - but have never gotten around to doing so.

I don't expect you to integrate anything at all from my future versions. Feel free to take anything you like - but your mod is your mod.

Hopefully the itch to mod more on 2.5 will come back around to me sooner than later. It always does in time. :)

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by SpardaSon21 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:30 pm

Well, have you had any thoughts on making human ships more tolerable? I'm not too happy with them in vanilla SotS, and IIRC you think they can be improved on as well. I'd suggest TrashMan's models as sort of a slow battlewagon approach with slow speed and excellent armor and firepower, but he doesn't have AM Node Pathing engines.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Alpha Centauri » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:58 pm

I'm not a huge fan of human ships not so much because of aesthetics (though, some) - more because their choice of mounts was clearly done early in the design of the game and suffers compared to pretty much everyone else - especially their cruisers. They're all medium mounts and terrible PD small and even kind of low on total mounts (I haven't done a real analysis - so this is just impressions compared to Liir, Morrigi - but I even find I prefer the Tarkas cruisers which poor on PD, at least have sensible offensive mounts with better firing arcs and more of them).

Right now I'm still in a "meh" slump - heh - just into MEA (Mass Effect Andromeda). I'll come around, for certain, and move this forward again. But not for the next while.

If someone wanted to make a mini-mod with just the Human ships redone - oh, damn - nevermind - you can't really do that because they share the icon placements file with everyone. D'oh! That's a bummer.

Maybe I'll clean that file up - really organize it - then it would be at least conceivable to make a single race only minimod with that file only modified in the human parts. Still, an unfortunate design decision. Ah well.

puglebugle
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by puglebugle » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:08 pm

Alpha: Corrosive and Nanite mines now work properly (messy, like their missile counterparts, but they do work)

What has been wrong with these mines? Please, Does anyone know?

Hey Alpha, could you please be so kind and send me/ make public files for:

***Morrigi CR Barrage (with fixed firing arcs)
***Sats icon placements
***Cor and Nan mines files
***Minor fix on human spinal nodes.
***And your new HE warhead icon ?
(mine was too square as you said :D)
***And maybe DN WAR for broadside.
(taken from your changelog)

I would appreciate these files very much.
Realistic Combat/Naval Gunnery/TechTree Revision SubMod (v1.1) for Bsots (mod for Sots 1) http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=57039&p=555149#p555149

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Alpha Centauri » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:51 pm

I don't recall what I fixed for Corrosive / Nanite mines - probably a type-o of some sort. I'll see if I can figure it out.
[I looked - and I cannot find any changes that would relate to this statement! Sorry!]
[I looked again - this was a *really* old change log from "post 2.1" - so it appears that I changed the .weapon files for those mines to fix their weaponclass & family. I hope it's having the correct effect - but the truth is, I cannot be certain - as I'm using conventionalmine now instead of corrosivemissile - so, it definitely appears to be working - and I assume by my comments that it wasn't even appearing to previously?]

Yes, I'll publish 2.5. Been meaning to - but always there is something more to test / try out. :)

I'm playing a game now - and really enjoying it. Esp. my changes to the economy - ship upkeep / cost of & maintenance of stations.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mm8d517q7 ... ars_2.5.7z

Shenaldrac
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Shenaldrac » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:59 pm

Out of curiosity, why did you make a new thread instead of putting the update in the original BSOTS thread? I only realized there was a new thread from you posting there mentioning you'd posted an update in "the other thread".

Glad to see that work's continuing on this, and that there's a new version to play around with!

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by SpardaSon21 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:41 pm

I can't say anything about the dual mounts, but IIRC the dumbfire missiles are technically classed as ballistics, complete with a deflection chance and bonuses from VRF tech, too. As far as I know the main tag just prevents them from being in strafe mounts and switches their damage bonuses from ballistic to missile. One thing you could do to get around the current setup w/ regard to missile damage being tied explicitly to warhead is to borrow ACM's idea's of having missile warhead damage upgrades fluffed as other things and separate chemical/nuclear/fusion/antimatter missiles. I'm actually very fond of a lot of the ideas in that missile tree, so I'd like to see it incorporated into BSotS if possible.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:12 pm

Okay,

I got some inspiration last evening. Damn I wish I had that kind of energy and focus more often!!!

I adjusted most ships penalties to maneuver and speed (more consistent, gave strafe a penalty to rotational speed which should have always been there).
I gave all ships improved top speed and improved acceleration. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out (I'm in a game as Morrigi and initial results are good - might increase top speed and/or acceleration a bit more - but want to wait to test some bigger battles).

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:24 pm

Wish list:

Implement Puglebugle's suggested list of weapons.
Rethink the construction tree a bit so that there is no redundancy. I hate having "hammer head" twice. And I wish that "assault" and "barrage" were research items.
Add heavy standard drones, and light advanced drones. (and improve the damn models for them so that they have hardpoints that match the logical definitions instead of overloading the one weapon hardpoint to support up to 3 mounts).
(BTW the new mini-torps for bomber drones works very well - at least for photon torps and gluonics - loving the effects).
Adjust emitter line to reach planetary bombardment range? (my nerfing of their range means that I need to update their planetary override or they can't bombard at all which is annoying).
Play out more DN games to see what the hell I've done to them! lol - I like the ideas of making them have larger mounts - but I really would like them to have some PD. Sigh - but it's still an overwhelmingly tedious assload of work to go through all the shipsection files and iconplacements to assign some banks as small again. :( Ugh!
Maybe nerf the RP costs of the later game? Standard 100/100 games aren't seeing AM until nearly 170 turns in or more (and that's for my empire, which tends to be #1 or #2 depending on the game).
Revisit caustic and nanite mines. I'm not convinced they're working correctly? ugh - I wish I had better docs & access to source code!!!

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 2.5

Post by Alpha Centauri » Mon May 01, 2017 3:39 pm

What do you all think about this:

I've discovered that the Ai basically never (super rarely?) builds more than one station at any world (except morrigi who build multiple Hab stations often in addition to one purpose-type station)

This puts the Ai at a massive disadvantage - Trade stations are critical to getting a great economy.

So, I'm thinking of restricting all players to 1 station per world (2 billion pop required for 2nd station - which you can always build one).

If I do that - then I wonder about shaking up the station models. The sensor model, command, and ship yard are the best ones. Habitat makes sense to leave alone...

So, maybe combine science and sensor into a single one using sensor model.
combine habitat and trade so as to give morrigi their much needed economic boost...
combine ship yard and command to give production boost + defense boost..
combine command & trade to allow for a sort of anti-piracy / power projection which generates increased trade...

so you'd have the choice of one of the follow (with the first being for Morrigi only):
habitat/trade
shipyard/command
command/trade
sensor/science

Could do sensor/command? that would be a reasonable one too - and maybe just reuse the command model for that...

The above hinges on the ability to combine more than one into a single station - i.e. will the game give the full benefits, or will it only honor one of the shipsection tags and give just that one function?

Thoughts / Feedback...

EDIT/update:
:'( It appears that their functions cannot be combine fully.

Command + Trade = command, but no trade bonus route. I think only one station x tag works.

I can force command to include deep scan capabilities - but not to include the specialized sensor ability to detect cloaked vessels. And there's no way to combine trade bonus with defense management from command (though I could give trade some command capacity).

...? bummer

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