BSOTS 3.0 WIP

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by SpardaSon21 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:28 pm

Look good. A couple of questions though. Why did you bring back autocannons? Did you finally come up with a way to make them distinct from stormers and useful at the same time? You also took out the additional ballistic tiers. Why? Also, in terms of content, any chance of medium mount laser weapons besides the final tier?

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:58 am

I'm not going to try to cram medium or large lasers in to the current tech tree - they just don't make sense the way things are currently structured...

This is just an interim release that deals with the missing techs that are technically in-game already, but not represented (have to be given instead of researched).

The 3.0 version - I'm hoping to use something like the radical tree (prev posts) which uses a core "technology" lineage + branching "application" techs - so that you research UV "technology" once, and "medium pulse cannons" once - and when you later research X-Rays, then you'll get "medium pulsed X-Ray cannons" immediately.

So that all of the weapons techs - missiles, lasers, plasma, and ballistics follow the same core concepts and patterns.

Due to the way SOTS is implemented in hard code, I cannot make them all identical - upgrading certain things about ballistics still gives you instant and immediate benefits to existing ships - whereas for lasers you must actually design newer ships. No way to control that.

But, I think it will be a better player experience to have a more normalized tech tree (and easier to add new techs or application weaponry techs [doesn't lead to the explosion of x * y = number of new techs to add]).

As to Autocannons - I'm leaving the techs in the tree - but will likely not make them possible to research (for now). I hate deleting what's already made - I might have a use for those nodes later!

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:37 am

I do pine for medium lasers pretty much every game I play... maybe I'll find a way to squeeze them in for 2.6.

Tech name ideas? (looking for suggestions)

My ideas so far (for a tech which unlocks medium lasers for whatever small laser tech you already have):

Photonic Amplification
Multibeam Multiplexor
Multiphasic Amplifiers
Wide-beam Coherence Technology
Wide beam Focus Array
Multi-beam quantum entangler
...?

EDIT:

I took pity on us and added one tech, provisionally called "Heavy photonics" - which is off of green beemers and green lasers - which enables medium lasers of whatever tech you have (and links to heavy combat lasers).

Image

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by SpardaSon21 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:32 pm

I see. Well, personally speaking I wouldn't mind losing the passive neutronium rounds upgrade if it allowed for an expanded ballistics tree. A bit disappointed 3.0 is that far off, but an updated 2.6 release with some bug fixes and minor content would definitely be appreciated. Thanks for the new medium lasers tech, too.

EDIT: From my understanding tech bonuses are hardcoded to certain technology names, so changing the name from WEP_NeutRnd to something like WEP_NeutRnd1 would disconnect the tech entry from the bonus. An alternative would be removing the damage bonus in ctechvars and changing the string entry to "Gravitic Drivers" (since it requries GravCon) and saying it unlocks gravitic rounds for enhanced knockback for all weapons and also upgraded versions of existing Gauss drivers that replace the magnetic coils with gravitic ones for higher velocity, damage, and accuracy. Grav driver rounds could be the exact same mass as existing ones so that wouldn't be a massive boost there. A bonus there IMO is that that makes the ballistics tree able to look and act more like the energy trees.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:33 pm

2.6 - if we end up calling it that - has a fair bit of new material over 2.5. These version numbers are somewhat arbitrary - and depending on how much we do put into it, vs. hold back for a larger scale release, will influence what we end up naming it as.

But essentially I'm thinking I would release a "2.6" which is the accumulation of changes I have for 3.0 as of now - and push off major restructuring of the tech tree for a 3.0 future release.

However - these things are organic - and depending on Warcat's time availability is, and my inspiration, who knows what will actually happen.

---

As to the ballistics tree - it is true that I can take away the automatic improvements quite trivially - and force it to work as the laser tree or plasma tree does (i.e. each new "core tech leap" requires new ships with new weapons).

I have something like that planned for 3.0 - the radical tech tree does indeed introduce new material types to use as bullets - but requiring new weapons in order to make use of the new bullets - i.e. just like UV lasers vs. green lasers - you must redesign your ships.

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by SpardaSon21 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:06 am

I'd honestly love a more iterative release series before the big 3.0 overhaul you've talked about. 2.5 isn't bad by any stretch, but compared to what you've teased at so far it seems somewhat shallow.

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RelicLord
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by RelicLord » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:26 pm

First off, I'm a random oldie and only just today found out that the SotS modding community still existed. Your mod has been a breath of fresh air for one of my favorite games ever made, (like when someone told me about XPiratez for the original X-COM). Thank you so much for your dedication even after all this time; it's amazing.

With that out of the way, I really like your proposed "simple" 3.0 tree. It's probably an absolute mess to try and simplify everything in the game code, but from the player's standpoint, I think that the micro-techs really do bog down the game. I've long preferred having less techs that each take longer and do more, and I think the projectile-as-tier, weapon-as-branch design is the best way to do it. It gives techs more meaning when they're weighted to cost more but yield more. In SotS2 the prototype-production ship design feature gave each version of a ship meaning and power. It was supposed to feel momentous and cool when you finally started production on that new ship line with the shiny new toys, instead of making a new ship version every turn. A slimmer tech tree brings that same aspect to SotS1. Less "CR-Armor Mk138" and more "Time for the new Armada".

Just my 2 pence.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:53 am

Thanks for your kind words.

I'm looking forward to the next update as well. Simplified will have to be sometime after that.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:49 pm

Well, I'm liking the simplified idea - and I'm hoping to release an interim version based on a between or transition point for that.

Here's an update to the tech tree - really the Warheads section - reflecting such a simplified approach:

Image

The idea would be that mines like missiles have a variable warhead that automatically improves with better warheads, and some specialized techs that require specific mine types - e.g. leap mines (which still themselves have a warhead dependent on the current warhead tech).

Similarly, the missile techs are more about locomotion and size and launcher capabilities (and specialized ones, such as MW).

I would like to add "armored missiles" as well - which requires armor + heavy or huge missiles. I am considering cloaked missiles as well (I need to test it).

But more synergy weapon systems rather than having to research all.

I a little hesitant to go whole hog in this direction - since this removes a lot of user-choices. They're still basically there - but they're not as self-explanatory.

fabio80mi
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by fabio80mi » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:24 pm

Seems good!

One thing i really don't like much of the 2.5a (or 2+ versions anyway) is the inability to do attacks on colonies that are well estabilished.
It's possible it's me not figuring it out yet but at destroyer tier even 10 bio or 15+ assault shuttles don't do anything close to capture/destroy a planet

How do you plan to adress in 3.0 <100 the colony attacks ?

Look forward to see this in action!

Aca

P.s.
If anyone have tips on effective way to attack estabilished colonies/homeworlds before Antimatter i am all ears!

Starlord
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Starlord » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:17 pm

P.s.
If anyone have tips on effective way to attack estabilished colonies/homeworlds before Antimatter i am all ears!

In regards to this question, I would recommend large hulled ships, and ballistic weapons in your medium and large slots if you don't have ballistics dumb-fire missiles make a decent substitute, plasma cannons are your last choice but they don't become effective till antimatter. Also research advanced drone frames if you can, as they make your planetary invasion shuttles more effective. Use a combination of ground bombardment and invasion and you should be able to take one in two to three turns. If you want to destroy a planet, as in render uninhabitable use heavy beams, like the neutron or positron beam. Standard ships can only be effective in large numbers, if using standards research improved CNC techs.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:17 pm

Good advice.

In my general experience, fusion age weapons and above are effective at murdering populations from orbital bombardment.
When you get antimatter weapons, they tend to not only murder rapidly, but also generate significant climate shift on the planet, often rendering it uninhabitable if you choose to simply go with orbital bombardment.

Plagues can be very effective, if you want to preserve most of the infrastructure, and are willing to babysit them in on an attack run.
Planetary Invasion ships are very effective as well, but also require that you keep them alive to deliver their payload of marines.

Generally, if I'm in the fission age, I simply don't bother to try to take established worlds. I'll attack baby colonies, and can bombard those to extinction, if I catch them early enough. But established worlds almost require either a few plague missiles or invasion shuttles to land.

If I am using invasion shuttles or plagues, the trick is to setup two fleets: 1 as the main attack fleet to clear the area. I choose that one for the first turn or more depending on how much resistance is present. I keep using that fleet until I clear enemy ships and satellites. I setup a 2nd fleet for invasion / plague delivery. That fleet is entirely CNC + invasion or plague. Once the area is mostly cleared of enemy combatants, then I choose that fleet instead and waltz up to the planet and drop all I got. It's mine that turn almost certainly. If I face some last minute arrivals, I have to take those out or take some losses of my shuttle carriers / plague carriers, but if the 1st fleet did its job, the 2nd will succeed and world will be mine.

drages
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by drages » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:16 pm

Hey!

I am waiting 3.0 too! I hope you are well since we did not speak.. any news?

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:23 am

drages wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:16 pm
Hey!

I am waiting 3.0 too! I hope you are well since we did not speak.. any news?
Yes and no.

Warcat's busy, so no new modelling.

I've made some interesting changes - been playtesting a lot with a friend multiplayer. Happy with the adjustments and relatively small improvements.

I'll probably have to release what I have as a 3.x at some point. Still hoping warcat will have some time and that I can get Okim's cool drone models integrated, which I just haven't had time / enthusiasm for (It's a relatively big piece)

drages
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by drages » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:33 pm

Alpha Centauri wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:23 am
drages wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:16 pm
Hey!

I am waiting 3.0 too! I hope you are well since we did not speak.. any news?
Yes and no.

Warcat's busy, so no new modelling.

I've made some interesting changes - been playtesting a lot with a friend multiplayer. Happy with the adjustments and relatively small improvements.

I'll probably have to release what I have as a 3.x at some point. Still hoping warcat will have some time and that I can get Okim's cool drone models integrated, which I just haven't had time / enthusiasm for (It's a relatively big piece)
I wish Warcat could handle to rebuild the lame DN-War section before gone.

Anyway i will play 2.5a for now.. will wait the 3.0..

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