BSOTS 3.0 WIP

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Slashman
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Re: BSOTS 3.0

Post by Slashman » Sun May 28, 2017 12:28 am

Mecron wrote:"What do folks think about radically simplifying the weapons portions of the tech tree?

Basically, SOTS has always had this convoluted mixture of new-tech for mount sizes (esp. in ballistics tree, but also in plasma cannon tree), and upgrades to fundamental tech w/o regard to mounts, esp in the warhead tree."



Oh please can I say what I think? :twisted:


I'd be interested to hear it! Just bear in mind that this is what happens when modders have no constraints so don't be too harsh... ;p
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Lord Primus
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Re: BSOTS 3.0

Post by Lord Primus » Sun May 28, 2017 7:15 am

My mod for SOTS radically changed the tech tree, in that there was essentially two paths of research: ammo and style for weapons. An example: you research UV Lasers as the ammo means all existing researched styles (say you have researched Pulsed which is the starting style, then Gatling and PD) can now use UV instead or red or green.
Conversely if you next research say shotgun style, you will have access to all the ammo types researched. used this approach for all the weapons both original and new.

Going beyond Prime into SOTS ][ , I kept this approach, though a bit more limited as I can't alter the techtree much, so I changed the mounting system instead. Each ship class has a single mount assigned to a turret and a fixed. None of the possible variations on mounts, ie. railgun, heavybeam, torpedo, siege etc, it is now simply fixed.

Each of the two mounts per class has up to six sizes available which determines the weapons that can be fielded. Additionally say a weapon like the plasma cannon which has an entry level of cruiser medium, can move up or down the class ranges. In a destroyer it will be a heavy mount, in a dreadnought it will be a light mount etc.

Downside of the above is all the files I had and have to create. lol.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0

Post by Alpha Centauri » Mon May 29, 2017 4:33 pm

Mecron wrote:Oh please can I say what I think? :twisted:

I've found that modding your game has been a ton of fun.

I've also found that I run into various challenges - like "ballistics lends itself to techs for mounts, while energy lends itself better to techs for energy level" - and that there isn't a perfect one size fits all (or, maybe such a tree is doable, but would be a ton of work to get from here to there).
As Lord Primus suggests - it's conceptually sound, but a lot of stuff has to be reworked, so such constraints are part of the decision process for me, and I assume for you guys at Kerberos.

I'm deeply impressed that the game is still - IMO - the best implementation of a space combat sim out there.

But the fact that ballistics was done with one organizational matrix, while energy was done with another, has always left me feeling unsatisfied, even if ultimately there is not purely satisfying alternative that fits both trees to a tee.

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Mecron
Kerberos
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Re: BSOTS 3.0

Post by Mecron » Mon May 29, 2017 8:56 pm

In your opinion...which is groovy. And if more modders would learn to talk in those terms, more devs would be more sympathetic towards them instead of just gritting their teeth and using them as PR props or free dev testing, both of which are rife in the industry.


Lord P has some good ideas, but hardly gospel and the functional draw back he mentions last would be at the top of the problem list if he actually was doing this for a living in a real team.

Remember, thinking a car should have a bigger spoiler is a lot different than knowing why it has a smaller one in the first place.

As Sterling Archer would cry out..."PHRASING!!!!" :twisted:

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0

Post by Alpha Centauri » Tue May 30, 2017 9:08 pm

Here's a possible approach to simplifying the BSOTS tech tree with normalization in mind:

Image

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:24 pm

And here's an updated version of the "radical" streamlined approach.

Effort is primarily in the missiles section: [Updated!]
Last edited by Alpha Centauri on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:34 pm

Although missiles might use some minor tweaking - I'm pretty happy with all of this except for the engineering section - which still feels overly complicated and redundant.

If I can figure that section out, and depending on any other changes of heart, this looks like it might be where I'm going for 3.0

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TLX099
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by TLX099 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:35 am

I want Chinese language :roll:
ok,This is just a joke.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:23 am

TLX099 wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:35 am
I want Chinese language :roll:
ok,This is just a joke.
You or anyone else is of course more than welcome to do a translation!
It's a single file - very simple :)

even if you meant it as a joke...

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:17 pm

I updated the engineering tree - radically simplified it too:

Image

Warcat
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Warcat » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:02 am

I like this simplified version of the new engineering/industrial tree.
More streamlined without having to research every single section type.
Nice work Alpha! :love:

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:01 pm

Warcat wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:02 am
I like this simplified version of the new engineering/industrial tree.
More streamlined without having to research every single section type.
Nice work Alpha! :love:
Ironically - it's much more akin to the vanilla tree. :D

At least the Engineering one.

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SpardaSon21
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by SpardaSon21 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:30 pm

That's all looking great, AC. Any chance of a release soon?

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:43 am

I didn't have any intention of releasing quickly. I'm working on a minimal update to the tech tree for Warcat so we can do an interim release, however - one that just adds the current new techs that should be in the tree - without restructuring anything. I'm working on finishing the layout of that soon.

However, after that it's really more "where to from here" - I'd like to redo the entire tech tree, or maybe force myself to remain with what we have at that point and look instead at adding something new or borrowed.

I've been beta testing a "3.0 streamlined version" solo and multiplayer with a friend - and in both cases I've had great results.

The main change there is removing trade entirely and adjusting costs to try to allow all races to be competitive and account for the missing trade income (i.e. Morrigi suddenly lose a sizable chunk of income, so reducing their ship costs) and the Zuul suddenly have much more income relative to all other races (so far I've left them be)).

It turns out that the mars.exe's AI algorithms are MUCH more competitive when the trade is removed from the game. They're much more aggressive, much more expansionist, and their economies are much more comparable (or even better than) a Human players'.

Maybe Warcat and I can such an interim version released relatively soon?

My feeling is that once we open this and really get going, we'll want to make a lot of changes?

I guess if there were multiple folks interested in the "streamlined" version (no trade) I could be open to publishing a version based on what I have at this time.

Alpha Centauri
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Re: BSOTS 3.0 WIP

Post by Alpha Centauri » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:09 pm

Here's what I'm looking at for a 2.6 interim release:

Image

Hmm... not sure how to get dropbox and bbcode to agree?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7mq1nlqnnswak ... %202.6.png

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