Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

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Maerlyn
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Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Maerlyn » Tue May 13, 2014 8:41 am

Hi all,

this topic is a follow up to this topic: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=52644

but I decided to move the discussion here. The reasons for this decision are as follows:
1. the shieldquestion has been solved.
2. I think the discussion is better suited here.
3. my enemy found (and read) the other topic :yell:.

For all those who dont bother reading the last topic: I am running a 1vs1 game vs a friend. we are currently in turn 165. I am Hiver and am right now ressearching AM, he is Liir and is miles ahead of me in tech. I am ahead in income (since around 30 turns), colonies (just slightly) and ships, he is ahead in population, tech and output (!). The Puppetmaster just crossed our border and took 3 planets of mine (one size 8 jewel) and none of his colonies. We are playing in a barbell universe with ~ 100 planets. The "Borderzone" is on the Liir side of the Galaxy.

To summarize what has happened since my last post: the EMP Torpedoes have done wonders! (Thanx ZedF and fiendishrabbit).
The Liir even stopped using shields altogether because of them. He is right now using Dreadnoughts with Energy Absorbers, Quark Resonators (this lucky soab!) armed with either cutting beams or Chakkar/Chakram. I am using Quark Resonatored BB/Armor Cruisers with Heavy AP Neutroniom Rounds upgraded Massdrivers and HCL (the later are doing absolutely nothing).

I also reasearched Dreadnoughts, but have been using only CnC DN so far since I still got tonns of Cruisers.

So.... what to do now? This is only my second time that I ressearched AM (I only play MP and our games usually end before AM) and I ve never played Hivers before. So I got no ideas about Massdriverusage in AM. Luckily the Liir has got neither Meson nor Grav Shields available. Right now I am loosing in Average half a DN (CnC) and ~10 Cruisers for every DN I kill.

I plan to ressearch Accelerator Amplification right after I get AM and build some Railcannons. But should I put them on DDs or on Cruisers? I got the feeling that Cruisers are better suited to deal with his Cuttingbeamships and are much cheaper as well.

So here are my questions:

DN or Cruisers?
I ve never used any of the high end Mass Driver techs, so:
Are Leech Rounds any good (I dont even know if I ll get them)?
What about Siege Drivers? Are they useable for anything else besides planetary bombardment?
What about Thumpers or Kinetic Kill Missiles?
Are there any other must have AM technologies besides Farcasters and Adamantite Alloys?
The Puppetmaster has left us with some roque AI Planets and I was thinking about ressearching AI myself. Would I immediatly have a revolution if I encounter any of the left over ships/planets from the Puppetmaster?
Any other ideas for me?

Thanx a lot for your help guys. We will be continuing our game on thursday, any input is welcome!
Maerlyn

ZedF
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by ZedF » Tue May 13, 2014 5:19 pm

DNs or cruisers depends on what your economy can support. As a racial preference, Hivers tend to prefer DNs and DDs to cruisers (exemplified by your costs to gate ships around.)

Siege Drivers are pretty much solely anti-planet. Impactor DN is the anti-shipping equivalent.

Thumpers mainly knock things around, but Liir have gobs of acceleration and may not be greatly affected. KKs are similar but they will also pack a big wallop IF they have long enough to accelerate to a high velocity. Popular satellite weapons, less so on warships.

Puppetmaster AI colonies do indeed count as AI rebellions for the purposes of spreading AI rebellion, AFAIK. So be sure to sterilize them before bringing any AIC-equipped ships there, and don't let them visit your worlds once you have any AI tech.

Getting some Absorbers of your own will be a big problem for your Liir opponent to deal with.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Torezu
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Torezu » Tue May 13, 2014 8:42 pm

Meson Shields are also an exceptionally good option against Liir, on the (admittedly low) chance you are allowed to research them. Even Disruptor Shields would give you a distinct advantage. Whatever you do, don't use large numbers of energy weapons against absorber ships...unless they're running mostly ballistics, and this is Liir, so I doubt that.

Maerlyn
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Maerlyn » Wed May 21, 2014 8:38 am

Update:

Thanx for your help again.

I did get Adamadite Alloys and Railcannons and implemented them into my DNs. I didnt get Point Absorbers nor any shield tech at all. Still his DNs where far better than mine and he killes around 2 DNs for every DN I kill.

He is running Disruptor Shields now and with all the mobility that he has got its easy for him to always face my side. He is also using Pulsed Phasers, Chakram and Cutting Beams, and is dealing TONNS of damage to my poor vessels while using Adamadite Alloys himself.

I dunno what a Hiver really can do against this kind of punishment. I am at the end of my techtree. There are no ways of increasing my MD damage further. My railguns are nice, but he is doing much more damage than I am. The only reason I am still alive is due to my much higher income (thanx to my tradenetwork).

I also did get a small lead through using Boarding Pods. But he is implementing Phaser PD now and thats the end of that card of mine.

ZedF
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by ZedF » Wed May 21, 2014 1:08 pm

You can get his absorbers if you bring enough repair ships to a battle you win. The same applies to disruptor shields, but you would need to salvage deflector shields first. Boarding and capturing his ships would also help with salvaging tech. Make sure you have his language techs researched to improve your odds of getting salvage. Really in the end-game, this is what hivers do: hunker down and survive long enough to work out all the tricks your enemies have, then use them against him (while having ships that are far tougher than his, one for one, even if you both have the same armour.)

Remember your EMP torps will shut down his disruptor shields just as well as any other shield. For ships that aren't using shields, Disruptor torpedoes will cut down on incoming fire from his turreted weapons.

If you are at the end of the tech tree you should have farcasters. Any possibility of sending a whole bunch of smaller fleets (say 3 DNs each) to a bunch of his worlds at once, with the intent of hitting under-defended worlds? In the endgame, planets tend to be far squishier than heavily armoured DNs.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Starknight
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Starknight » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:19 am

If you have Gluon Torpedoes, they bypass Point Absorbers. It's not a huge damage spike, but it's something. Careful targetting with AP drivers will let you pick off his weapons (well, at least the Chakrams and phaser mounts). The Cutting Beams are still going to hurt.

Keep mixing up technologies on him, keep him guessing. The more counters he deploys against you, the more chances you have to salvage them and use them against him. :)

As ZedF said, this is what Hivers do - outlast the enemy.
My Morrigi fleet-speed calculator for SotS Prime
The Holy Lands - Hivers vs. the infidel Liir (and others)
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:29 am

Adamantite Alloys and Energy Absorbers are a deadly combination.
They still have a weakness though : you can't actually put higher armor than polysilicates on the absorber section! (at least for Liir)
So, be sure then to focus your ballistic weapon fire on the absorber section.

I'm not sure why he would use Disruptor Shields if you're using mainly ballistic weapons. (And energy absorbers are much better against energy weapons anyway.)

Torezu
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Torezu » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:28 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:They still have a weakness though : you can't actually put higher armor than polysilicates on the absorber section! (at least for Liir)
So, be sure then to focus your ballistic weapon fire on the absorber section.

I'm not sure why he would use Disruptor Shields if you're using mainly ballistic weapons. (And energy absorbers are much better against energy weapons anyway.)

I'm not certain of this, but I don't believe any shield sections (absorbers count) can have better than polysilicate. That prevents players from making mostly invulnerable ships.

The use of Disruptors is odd, unless he's seeing your HCLs and is compensating for those.

Maerlyn
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Maerlyn » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:33 pm

My bad, he wasnt using Disruptors, he was using Deflectors. So I needed to include more HCL ships again to deal with those.

Thanx for all the help guys, I couldnt have done it without you (was my first Hiver game after all).

But anyway, I won :lol: ! (due to attrition). Thanx to Megafreighters I had more than double his income, and although he kept killing far more ships than I did, I kept producing even more (my ships being slightly cheaper helped as well). But that only helped me defend. What made my game was an attack fleet of mine which farcasted into his territory, landed exactly where it was supposed to land, deployed a gate, and farcasted to an empty planet in the middle of his bubble one turn later. There I deployed a new gate. And from there I managed to attack 3-4 planets in the middle of his empire. Since he had far less production than I had and only 1 huge and invicible fleet (including his flagship) he could only defend one planet at a time while I kept leaping forward. So he capitulated :).

I think he should have gone for my homeplanet instead with his mainfleet. he knew its position. I had 30k ressources there and I ve been building only through this planet. had he attacked this production center of mine he would have won for sure, but hunting my ships when I was producing 3 times his amount of ships, well... :twisted:

Torezu
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Torezu » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:04 pm

This outcome just goes to show what economy and production can do vs technology. It doesn't hurt you that the Liir have a serious problem with late-game travel speeds, and Hiver can almost always respond to defend planets before Liir can arrive. For fun and information, 1-turn surprise attack range, late game:

Morrigi: 20 LY easily
Human: 15 LY with node lines
Tarka: 12 LY
Zuul: 12 LY after node boring, with AM, 8 during node boring with Radiant Bore (expensive, very late game for most Zuul)
Hiver: 10 LY with Farcasters, no guarantee of landing, uses gate network capacity
Liir: ~7 LY planet-to-planet, ~10-11 LY deep space-to-planet.

This is why you don't want a human-controlled Morrigi to develop a sizeable empire...a few fleets bouncing around with no path constraints and 20-25 LY/turn ranges can screw an empire over pretty fast.

Many things influence ambushes in late game, though, including node path locations for Humans, existence of bored node paths for Zuul, fleet size for Morrigi (speed can be as low as 4 and as high as ~30-31 depending on fleet composition), nearby gates for Hiver, galaxy shape for Liir (2d tends to be harder on them due to all the grav wells in plane). Nothing affects late-game Tarka - max 1-turn range is always 12 in a straight line.

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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by ZedF » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:58 pm

Torezu wrote:This is why you don't want a human-controlled Morrigi to develop a sizeable empire...a few fleets bouncing around with no path constraints and 20-25 LY/turn ranges can screw an empire over pretty fast.

Same for Human or Tarka, really. 15 LY along a node line only is a slight limitation for the first turn of combat at a front-line world. If they can survive that, e.g. by hanging out in the system periphery and giving your defenders a wild goose chase, they can go anywhere from there, and become exponentially harder to track down. In practice, Tarka are just about as hard to pin down as Morrigi; their target selection on a per-fleet basis is only a little more constrained than the Morrigi since it doesn't usually make a big difference if you can go 20 LY or only 12, it will be enough to find somewhere to hit regardless.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Torezu
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by Torezu » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:07 pm

Agreed. Though if you do get up to the 25-30 LY/turn range with an end-game Morrigi fleet (requires lots of DNs), you can drop on a HW or major shipyard from far enough away that it's hardly possible to prepare for it. Unless you're in a tightly clustered galaxy or have a broad border, it's often possible to see Tarka or Human on approach with good sensors (stations). Morrigi - not so much.

ZedF
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by ZedF » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:16 pm

In general I'd tend to think several largish but not huge fleets capable of quickly wiping out under-defended colonies, moving at 12-15 LY/turn apiece, is going to outperform a single monster fleet, requiring a similarly monstrous level of resources to construct, capable of going 25 LY in a turn. :)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Liir vs Hiver Duell Advice Request (Moved from Weapons)

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:53 pm

Actually, Morrigi can't go any faster than 25, which is their maximum non-ER range, it's a bit like they can't pump fuel into their engines any faster!
You can get those 25ly/turn with 20 DE's, 20 CR's and "only" 10 DN's (including the Gravboat DN).
You can test it out for yourself in this save :
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