Story + Gameplay - Engine 3

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silvaril
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Story + Gameplay - Engine 3

Post by silvaril » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:18 pm

Heya

Can't find a finalised last engine step yet. :oops:

Can someone please identify what it is for me so that the design thread for DE engines can complete.

Thanks :)
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Post by CatchCharyou » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:13 am

When you say Engine 3, I take it you mean Anti-Matter?

This is what I was able to dig up from the 55 page monster ship design thread. I think I'm going to close it and start a new one; have a fresh thread for newer input.

Old skool Engine layout

Elaborating Engine Techs

Engines for DE, CR, DN

CR engine and DE Fusion concepts

Better DE Fusion

Simplified DE Engine sections, made in DOGA

Hopefully some of that is helpful. :wink:
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Although I do have some ideas... *sigh*

Post by silvaril » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:23 am

Heya

Antimatter is Power 3.

Engine 3 is the level 3 engine design.

Level 1 is the Jump-Drive
Level 2 is a refined Jump-Drive, goes further, better range
Level 3 can be either step beyond, akin to Flickerwarp or Node pathing, or it could be a step "sideways" like the Hiver farcaster effect.


My understanding of the Gameplay aspects of the Jump Drive is:

Drive uses "capacitor charge" to move ship X light years in a single jump.
Drive then requires "recharge" of a 1 turn stand down time.
Drive does not allow for course changes during the Jump, so ships cannot intercept enemy fleets.
Ships jumping cannot be intercepted, but can be intercepted during the recharge turn when the ships aren't moving.

AM Tech allows for planetary capacitance, with the possibility of obtaining the Tech at Fusion level but at increased RP cost.

STL flight is available for ships retreating from battle.

Currently there is no "special" level 3 drive alteration.
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Post by CatchCharyou » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:20 am

Ah, so I misunderstood entirely then. You are correct though, I recall no final engine capability being determined.
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Post by Zabaron » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:04 am

IIRC there was the idea of a capacitor cruiser of some sort that would carry a set charge (much like a tanker) and allow ships to avoid the turn of recharge every other turn (they would still drop to normal space between turns to let the cruiser recharge them so intercepts and course changes would still be possible). This is that branch of the tech tree that I proposed a while ago, but I think it needs work still.

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I like it... But then anything that changes dynamics... ;p

Post by silvaril » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:55 am

Heya

I had some thoughts on this just recently, upon realising that I was short it for the DE Engines Designs.

The Engine Tech in the sticky post states:

Code: Select all

Accurate Drives, Simplified

Strategic Speeds:
Power   Jump    Hull    BrstSpd AvgSpd  Range
------------------------------------------------
Fission Jump1   --      4       2+      4

Fusion  Jump1   --      5.5     2.75+   10
Fusion  Jump2   --      7       3.5+    12
Fusion  Jump3   --      8       4+      14

AM      Jump1   --      9       4.5+    16
AM      Jump2   --      11      5.5+    18
AM      Jump3   --      13      6.5+    20



Rockbug Power 3 + Engine 3 is 13, equivalent to Human Power 3 + Engine 2.

My understanding of the initial tech discussions was that we wanted to not-quite-match the humans.

Yet even at Engine 3 we are half their Engine 2 speed over distance.


My understanding of the gameplay values of the Drive Tech is:

silvaril wrote:Drive uses "capacitor charge" to move ship X light years in a single jump.
Drive then requires "recharge" of a 1 turn stand down time.
Drive does not allow for course changes during the Jump, so ships cannot intercept enemy fleets.
Ships jumping cannot be intercepted, but can be intercepted during the recharge turn when the ships aren't moving.

AM Tech allows for planetary capacitance, with the possibility of obtaining the Tech at Fusion level but at increased RP cost.

STL flight is available for ships retreating from battle.



Note that unless recharging or going STL, rockbugs cannot intercept or be intercepted.


Given:
Kerberos Productions wrote:Although neither the Tarka nor the Hivers realize it, their FTL drives in fact use the exact same Menisceal Principle in exactly opposite ways.

Hiver gates function by manipulating the Menisceal Principle, which states that the obervable universe is merely a thin 'skin.' Anything that can leave this 'skin' temporarily becomes a non-event in space-time, and certain technologies can manipulate it in different ways. The Gate mechanism employs the non-event property to remove and re-insert matter at different locations of the universe. Each Gate represents a nexus of simultaneity; a ship passing through the Gates is briefly everywhere and nowhere at once. Hiver ships become one with the skin for a moment, and then re-coalesce at the desired coordinates. Tarka ships use the same effect in the exact opposite way, though neither civilization realizes the common basis of their FTL methods.



I think the rockbugs are using a third method of manipulating the Menisceal Principle.
Similar to the Hiver Farcasting concept, but capable of far greater accuracy because the 'caster travels with the ship as opposed to being a fast receding stationary point behind you at the point of origin.

Assuming all of the above, then my suggestion for Engine 3 is:

With the advent of AntiMatter and the readily available power generation capabilities of same, Rockbug engineers have discovered a cyclic method of power generation and release.
Where previously their engines traveled the interstellar distances in a single "Hop", this new drive principle more closely resembles several 'Skips".
Each skip utilises the same Drive principle as the hop but travels far less distance. The use of multiple capacitors running in parallel, each able to only supply power for that short a distance, combined with the ability of an AntiMatter power plant to recharge each capacitor before all others fully discharge results in a drive system that:
Can intercept, and be intercepted by, Tarka and Liir FTL propulsion methods.
Doesn't require that the rockbugs have to recharge a bulk capacitor for one turn to continue moving.
Does not increase their per-turn movement rate.


The idea here effectively alters their gameplay dynamic, dependant upon AntiMatter.
It would also require re-jigging the Engine 2 Distance stats so that they resemble the Human ones.
Do you keep your fleet using the un-interceptable Engine 2 drives, or move to the more flexible (and more expensive) Engine 3 drives?
Assault fleets using Engine 2 while defense fleets use Engine 3?
Last edited by silvaril on Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darloth » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:44 am

Now that is a cool idea.

If only we could also let that engine tech give them short range tactical teleport... Then again, I believe Erdrik has achieved that for the tarka, so perhaps we could.

I like the idea of changing their engine dynamic at AM. However... The drawback is then they're basically just tarka engines. It makes sense from an in-character viewpoint, but gameplay wise... it isn't exploiting a possibility, so I think we should think about it carefully.

**is undecided, in the end**

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Post by Zabaron » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:38 am

As I understood it they could change course and be intercepted. What's to stop them from changing course? They're sitting there in real-space any time the player is capable of issuing commands (the only time they're actually jumping is between turns). Now interceptions do happen between turns, so it would make sense that they could not be intercepted on their jump turns, but would be sitting targets on their recharge turns.

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Post by moving fusion » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:11 am

Thats what it says. Unless I misread it. The drive technology does make some sense, the question I have though is this: Does it take longer to charge the 'capacitor' for longer jumps? Also, does this 'capacitance' follow the same rules for charging and discharging as real capacitors that we have here? Capacitors here charge and discharge as an inverse exponential. This means they reach half charged very quickly and take an infinite time to reach fully charged, similarly with discharging. The interesting thing with dis charging is that with out anything to restrict current flow they can supply a near infinite current for very short periods of time. This, I think, is what the rockbugs must use to perform the jumps.
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Post by Zabaron » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:32 pm

The capacitor always takes the same time to charge: one turn. It then jumps a set distance based on drive tech and then repeats the whole process.

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Post by Jandor » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:32 pm

Maybe the level 3 engine tech "extra" could be that you can allow your ships to charge for more turns? So as to miss out having to stop/start/stop/start. Maybe only to a maximum of 2 turns of charge (so as to miss 1 turn of charging when moving), 3 maybe with a special engine section. Symbolize the extra charge with a little electrical animation (like the "about to colonize" or "mining" symbols.)
That way you have the specialness you require for Engine 3 and a unique gimmick section like the node missile or wraith abductor. Plus it comes in at the end game as opposed to the early or mid game like the other unique sections, making your race a little bit different in another way.
Anyone Fooled?

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Post by moving fusion » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:55 pm

That is a good idea. I do like the idea of having a special late game long jump engine.
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Post by Zabaron » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:34 pm

I think not. The rockbugs are already going to be the sneak-attack masters. Letting them charge for multiple turns to jump farther will mean sneak-attacks from across the map. Besides, the current jump-charge-repeat model was decided upon because people don't like to wait. People will get frustrated if their ships sit in one spot for two turns after they tell them to move, even if it means a long move on the third turn.

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Post by Darloth » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:23 am

How about we approach this from a different angle? Everyone else has a cool trick at their third level of engine... Except possibly zuul, who get node cannons at tech2.

Tarka get much improved tactical stats that stop relying so heavily on their actual power rank.

Liir get flickerwarp benefits and flicker missiles.

Humans get node missiles

Hiver get Farcasters

What do the rockbugs get along this line?

The first thing that comes to mind is some sort of tactical teleport drive, even if it's a specialist engine section which isn't as good as the "normal" section. It could even be a mission section or a command section, but that's the first thing that comes to mind. I can't remember if we discussed it or not.

If that's right out (although I don't think it would be superexpensive in K$... we already have other effects that target areas of space, and there's presumably code for stuff warping in) how about something relating to their mastery of teleportation in other ways? The ability to precede a ship coming from reinforcements with a full volley of missiles? A burst of force whenever they warp in?

Perhaps the huge big sphere at the back of the ship can be used as a weapon... rather reminiscent of the zuul, but if you could eject the core as it were, so that it flew off and exploded for much area damage - only once per engine section though and then you'd probably be at half maneuver and thrust.

I think this is the sort of thing we should be considering rather than entirely something strategic. Actually, the only race that gets something purely strategic are the hivers. You could make an argument either way for the Tarka, but they're generally quite straightforward.

What do you think?

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Post by Jandor » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:52 pm

TBH I think the best Engine 3 gimmick so far is Capacitor Cruisers so that you can skip recharge turns.

TBH those Jump speeds might want a little boosting though. 2.75 ly at Fusion :? .

Possible alternative below.

Code: Select all

Accurate Drives, Simplified

Strategic Speeds:
Power   Jump    Hull    BrstSpd AvgSpd  Range
------------------------------------------------
Fission Jump1   --      4       2+      4

Fusion  Jump1   --      6       3.0+      10
Fusion  Jump2   --      8       4.0+      12
Fusion  Jump3   --      9       4.5+      14

AM      Jump1   --      11      5.5+    16
AM      Jump2   --      13      6.5+    18
AM      Jump3   --      15      7.5+    20


I don't know, it will have to be play tested. Humans and Tarka's can surprise attack from 13/12 ly come the end game though. And thats their speed no matter what, no charging.
But with Planetary Capacitors and possibly Cruiser Capacitors they might end being fast to an unbalanced degree.
Anyone Fooled?

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