best anti-zombie weapons

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dreamwarior
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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by dreamwarior » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:30 pm

As for me, I will collect all extreme guns, heavy guns and powerful guns that's my primary weapon, my secondary weapon is something handy like knife, pistols and last but not the least my favorite blow guns. Yeah! watch out for me zombies i will hunt you.

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by Goweigus » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:56 pm

Are we talking real life here? Cause I've never seen any blowguns in game (and I don't see how that could kill a zombie anyway).

As a mostly average joe in the zombie world, shotguns and crowbars would be your best bet. *its pretty hard not to blow someones head apart with a shotgun from close range, and a crowbar is a versatile tool that is good for smashing heads too (they can both be used to break locks and open doors/windows). If a shotgun isn't enough to get you out of your jam, you're probably completely screwed anyway. You gotta find a balance between killing power, ammo supplies (shotgun ammo very common most everywhere), and noise. Killing a zombie with a shotgun should only take one shot, where as with most other guns 1 bullet might not be enough to obliterate the brain or disable a limb and kill a zombie.

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by Ares_in_snow » Sat May 01, 2010 5:35 pm

The big issue with shotguns is that the majority of their ammo is relatively weak birdshot.

There is a lot of hype along the lines of "I was so close the birdshot put a hole through him like a slug!"

It is just that, hype, and doesn't stand up to logical analysis. (Individual shot pellets #6 and smaller are just too light to carry enough energy to do the sort of damage needed to incap a zombie. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

I'd estimate that there's about 20x as much birdshot out there as buck or slugs. Any of the 3 major handgun rounds are at least as common, as is .223/5.56nato.

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by Elethiomel » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:53 pm

There is a lot of hype along the lines of "I was so close the birdshot put a hole through him like a slug!"

When I was in the army I was witness to an accidental discharge of a 7.62 blank round four inches from someone's thigh along a concrete groove. The channeled air pressure made a hole about half an inch wide and as deep through combat fatigues.

I don't know about how much powder there's in a birdshot shell as compared to a 7.62 blank round (which has more than a 7.62 live round), but if it's a breech-loading shotgun there's no loss of pressure through an automatic reload mechanism (as there wasn't in the blank-firing case because it doesn't have enough recoil to operate said mechanism), and if the shotgun is in contact with the target I imagine there would be quite a lot of damage just from the pressure. I don't think there would be enough to put a hole through someone, but certainly enough to impress someone with how powerful birdshot appears to be at extremely close range.
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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by Chris » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:29 am

While it seems I missed the debate over swords, it has rather captured my interest, and I can’t help but throw my two cents into the ring. Or whatever the applicable metaphor should be.

Let me start out by saying that I am no expert when it comes to swords. But let me continue by saying that I do take western martial-arts classes that revolve, primarily, around rapiers, longswords, and side-swords, and I have, in my opinion, learned and continue to learn a lot about the applications and limitations of these weapons. While I cannot match Ms Dembo’s historical knowledge on the matter, I think my practical experience is still applicable. I should also point out, while I’m being honest, that while I own a display katana, and find it a truly beautiful weapon, I haven’t ever used one, and don’t know much more about them than your average geek. Oh, and I’m also not taking firearms into account whatsoever, but instead looking at more... traditional weapons.

So:

For what it’s worth, a sword would not be my first choice when it comes to getting up close and personal with zombie apocalypse, and there are several reasons for this.

My first point is intended usage. Swords are have been used (and refined) for thousands of years and rather excel at what they do. However, without an exception I know of, they are designed to kill men, either with thrusts or cuts. Zombies may look like men, but they are not. Men bleed, men have organs, and men feel pain. Men know fear. Each of these points are equally important to the question. Zombies who don’t bleed, have organs, or feel pain are effectively immune to every cut and trust of a sword. They don’t begin to weaken and slow as blood-loss begins to take its toll on their muscles and organs. Their life isn’t suddenly a ticking clock if you pierce their lung or liver. This makes 99% of the actions you would perform with a sword useless.

Let’s look at that last 1%: Severing limbs. Some swords can certainly sever bones. I don’t doubt the katana can. But aside from the possibility of the katana (and have don’t know one way or the other on that one), swords are not designed specifically to cut through bones. If one can-great!-but it’s incidental. The reason for this is that it just isn’t economical. When cutting with a sword you want to deliver a cut with the tip of the blade or with a rather shallow slashing motion along the blade, parallel to surface of the skin. It is faster to perform, it takes a lot less energy to complete, it is easier to perform, it is exponentially easier on the sword, and it will often end a fight (With another living person, at least) just are surely.

Conversely, trying to cleave through a limp or spine is physically demanding, both on you and on your blade. Swords have also (and I don’t want to restart the debate over how fragile a sword is or is not) been known to become wedged in bone or to snap. Not to mention the micro-fractures any sword will develop when coming into contact with a hard object. Bones aren’t the world’s toughest material (I believe Mecron referred to them as “wet”) but they are solid enough to chip and damage even a good steel sword.

This sort of cleaving action has other drawbacks. Severing a limb is much harder to achieve. Where a strong flick of your wrist can open a fatal wound (in a person, at least), cleaving through bone requires a solid strike at a good angle, and would longer, start to finish, to complete. In combat, a great time to strike is when your opponent is in motion, so you want to minimize your own movement. Finally, to deliver a blow like this, you need to be closer to your opponent than is otherwise wise. This is because a blade transfers force most efficiently at a point about 2/3 to 3/4 down the length of the blade. Closer to the tip, and the blade is likely to bounce off, while closer to the guard you aren’t achieving the same speed and force. You can see this point easily on flexible swords, like a rapier or foil, by flicking the blade or giving the sword a good shake and holding it in front of you. The spot on the sword that doesn’t seem to be vibrating is where you transfer force with the best efficiency. In the case of most swords, being this close tends to put you within range of grasping hands, which zombies love to make use of. If, for whatever reason, you botch the job, you’ve now got a hungry zombie hanging on you, and your sword is suddenly useless.

If you want to base your tactics around cleaving, I suggest you look into weapons designed to chop and cleave. Axes come to mind.

My second major point is safety. Swords require a fair bit of training. I’m not joking. If you just pick one up and start swinging it around, you stand a very real chance of accidently harming yourself or someone else. I’ve been learning to use a longsword for a while now, and I still occasionally smack myself in the foot or shin when I overextend, lose focus, or just plain get tired. And in the zombie apocalypse, you aren’t going to be getting many good nights’ rest. It’s hell on earth. Dead, rotting, shambling things, some former friends and family members are trying to eat you alive. Proper nutrition will be a challenge. All-in-all, you aren’t at your best. You aren’t going to just shrug it off if, for whatever reason, you slip-up and put a nasty gash in your own leg. Risk of infection, limited mobility, blood-loss... It’s a pretty bad scenario, and not even an unlikely one.

Ms Dembo, I hope, can back me up on this, but outside of classical Romans, swords haven’t been used too heavily of a large (army) scale. Likely because of the extra training using a sword requires over a something like a spear. Instead swords were used by those who could afford (in cost, and in time) to learn, people with money and freedom, like samurai and western knights.

My third, and for now final, point is reliability. Swords come in various formats. Some are sturdy, like the longsword, almost a centimetre of steel at its thickest, other are rather less so, like the rapier, which I could snap in half with my bare hands, and most others, like the katana, fall somewhere in between. While swords can take a lot of force applied along the edge of the blade (that QVC katana aside), any sword meant to be carried (anything short of a two-handed or “great sword”) are made as thin as is realistic to minimize weight and as a result weaker along the flat of the blade and with long-term or incorrect use, or just plain bad luck, can break. This isn’t a big deal when you have a shield-bearer along with a spare sword or two, but when you’re at the end of the world and have to scavenge or forge your own blades, a sword suddenly becomes a lot less attractive. Basic sword care, while essentially a none-issue, has to be mentioned. You need to keep your sword well-oiled, clean, and sharp. Get lazy and the sword will deteriorate quickly.

So what would I prefer? A nice simple club. Let’s face it-they are designed, literally, to “bash brains in.” They are a couple orders of magnitude easier to use proficiently than swords, all the while being a heck of a lot sturdier and more reliable. Chances are you’ve already used one in some form or another. Whether it was a baseball or cricket bat, a hammer or crowbar. In fact, a large crowbar’s versatility makes it a serious contender. Try prying open a door or crate with something like a katana and risk snapping the blade. The crowbar?-it will thank you for the privilege. While a club is certainly no better against the body of zombie than a sword, it is, I think, a better tool with regards to the head. And, in a pinch, a club can be found or made of just about anything, with little or no work on your part. Besides the aforementioned bats and crowbars, you have the classic lead pipe, the abundantly supplied tree branch, or odd-balls such as a length of rebar or the skillet. Not all of these are equally effective, of course, but the same can be said for swords or any other kind of weapon you would care to name.

And, if you will excuse the hyperbole, bashing things with other things has to be hard-coded into our DNA.

Uh... wow. That kind of got away from me. But there it is.

:Edit: Quickly skimming through this I see that I missed jotting down a thought I also had: if clubs have a downside, it is weight. A rapier weights just a couple pounds at most (I should weigh one to be exact, but its late and I'm ready to turn in), and a longsword just a few more. A good sized crowbar should way about the same. The problem is that in any prolonged engagement you'll be in trouble. I start to get tired enough to become sloppy after about 1.5-2 hours of using a rapier, and in less than half the time using a longsword. Short breaks for water and to stretch out my arms and legs help prolong this time, but how likely is a breather during a zombie attack? I image a person would start to struggle with something like a crowbar or a heavier sword in something like 20 minutes of frantic swinging. But I believe its merits more than overcome this.
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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by Erinys » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:42 pm

Lol...well, that is a very long post, and I certainly can't reply to all of it. But I will try to address the ideas that were addressed to me.

1. You are correct that the sword has very rarely been used by an entire army, historically. This is not because there is anything wrong with the weapon, however. It's because there has rarely been a society which was metal-rich and economically powerful enough to be able to arm even common soldiers with an elite weapon. The Romans were a rare exception to this rule; the early Neo-Assyrians also armed nearly every soldier with a longsword, but this was only for a brief period.

The major reason why common soldiers use the spear or the club is not because they are more effective or easier to use in combat; it's because they are far, far cheaper to make. Whether they are easier for an "unskilled" person to use, and use well is not something I would want to get into. I've seen arguments of this sort go pear-shaped and wangtastic almost instantly among martial artists and it's just not pretty. ;p

2. This being said, the fact that the sword has rarely been a weapon for the common soldier does not invalidate its very long use history. Variations on the basic theme remained the elite warrior's weapon of choice for thousands of years; this was not an accident. In situations where people who valued their lives were most at risk in hand-to-hand combat, they chose the sword over any other option and paid to have the best weapon they could carry into battle. This fact deserves respectful consideration, in my opinion.

3. I would agree that the modern crowbar is a very nice evolution of the basic wooden prybar, and it's certainly the sort of luxurious use of iron that one might expect of a metal-rich society. This being said, a crowbar is not designed to be swung repeatedly as a weapon. I haven't seen a reliable test, but I would be willing to bet that a human body can deliver more destructive force, more accurately and usefully, and for a longer period of time, with a good sword than with virtually any other weapon. If this were not the case, people would not have "upgraded" whenever they had the money and the combat experience for thousands of years.

I think that the arguments in favor of the crowbar as a multi-use tool which can be used to bash heads AND open boxes and car trunks as a lever are valid and very sensible.

4. The comments on the value of superficial versus structural damage to the human body when it is zombified are well taken. There is a reason why, for example, I posited that the U.S. armed forces would be rather easily over-run by the Rot after the first month. A Rot-body simply does not fall down when you put a few 9 mm slugs through it; this problem would probably be insurmountable for the current combat doctrines and weapons of our military.

Our country's military forces are fully prepared to fight and remain in supply against an army of living human beings for about a week. After holding the line and firing on the enemy for a week, they will run out of ammunition. It would take at least a few days of that shooting for them to learn down to take down Rot-zombies permanently. Given the progression of the outbreaks, the conclusion is pretty much foregone.

On the other hand, when it comes to dismemberment and demolition of Rot bodies, it may be a mistake to assume that the connective tissue in Rotted victims are the same as in living people. Some of you have been shooting, cutting and even punching/kicking the Rot for a while now; you may have noticed that they fall and fall apart differently than living people do. Dismemberment of a Rot-body with a sharp blade might be significantly easier than it would be with a living person; although they lack some of the key vulnerabilities of the living, the dead may have weaknesses of their own.

Certainly my experience in forensic anthropology tells me that the human body behaves very differently in life than it does after death. Living bodies naturally remodel and repair bone, skin and other connective tissue at a surprising rate of speed. Keep in mind that although Erebos can force its puppets to keep moving and even knit them clumsily back together, it cannot make them truly live.

All of those natural healing processes have ceased in the Rot victims. Every swing of the arm or the leg creates micro-tears that weaken the joint. Every turn of the head loosens the connections in the spine. They may not fall apart of their own accord, but they are certainly not put together like the living any more.

Upshot: crowbars may be useful for more than just crushing bone, if you get in a good swing. Personally, I've always been a fan of the machete as a non-firearm anti-zombie weapon. But as an interesting man once said, "This is not rock-paper-scissors: 'gun' always wins." :)

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by Chris » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:45 pm

Thanks for taking the time for a detailed response. I'd like to do the same, but I'm not sure what I can add, and I don't really see any points I can contradict just yet.

You're clearly right about the difference in cost between a sword and a spear, and I'll admit I hadn't considered that.

Briefly, as for whether or not a sword requires more training than something like a spear, I admit I'm making an assumption. I'm simply basing it on the fact that the spear-point, feet away from me, is less likely to come into contact with my skin than a blade just an inch or two beyond my hand. Not that a spear would be very useful in the context of the zombie apocalypse.

...

Your comments on the effect of the Rot have me thinking, though. I have to wonder how much these zombies rely on the host's body to move around, and how much comes from black magic. Since destroying the brain or removing the head "kills" a zombie, there is certainly a need for the brain to remain connected to the body for said body to function. Can we then assume that there is a necessity for information of some sort to travel along the spinal cord? If so, would breaking a zombie neck "kill" it? Would damaging its spinal cord paralyze it? By that same token, does a zombie suffer ill-effects from broken bones and severed muscles?
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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by TrashMan » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:22 am

My loadout?

HK417
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsgstaO18jY
OR
VHS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4OX3X_3 ... re=related

In either case, silenced, with incendiary or hollow point ammo.
Something hard-hitting and reliable.

greatsword - power, reach and sturdiness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFAKTjOQ ... re=related

holy water - because it might work. I don't know what type of zombie I'm fighting.

Automag V - if I have to use a handgun, then I want one that can punch a fist-sized hole in someone

Chuck Norris - if all else fails, the ultimate weapon!
Last edited by TrashMan on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by TrashMan » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:25 am

Chris wrote:T
Briefly, as for whether or not a sword requires more training than something like a spear, I admit I'm making an assumption. I'm simply basing it on the fact that the spear-point, feet away from me, is less likely to come into contact with my skin than a blade just an inch or two beyond my hand. Not that a spear would be very useful in the context of the zombie apocalypse.



The sword requires more training. As a more versitle weapon, it has a far larger array of possible stances, counters and moves.
Clubs, maces and spears were most commonly used since they were cheaper to make, and simpler to use.
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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by gozer » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:53 am

my loadout?

1) crowbar - usefull both as weapon and as tool for opening crates/doors/whatever

2) SMG - something using common pistol ammo (9mm, .40, maaabe .45 if necessary). H&K UMP or chinese JS submachinegun (Type 05 chambered in 9mm - http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg75-e.htm) would probably be my choice. if I could get my hands on it, I'd pack detacheable silencer along with the SMG

3) pistol using same ammo as the SMG. again, with detacheable silencer if I could find/get one

-------------------------------
TrashMan wrote:greatsword - power, reach and sturdiness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFAKTjOQ ... re=related

Automag V - if I have to use a handgun, then I want one that can punch a fist-sized hole in someone


waaay too heavy. pretty soon you'd start to really hate carrying those

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by TrashMan » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:05 pm

Nah..a. greatsword is in the 1.6-4 kg range...usually weighs around 3-3.5 kg.

And the Automag itself is in the same weight/size class as the desert eagle.

Against zombies, you don' want penetration - you want tissue damage - as much as you can. The right type of bullet is just as advantageous as a higher caliber. Granted, something like .45 might be better. Or maybe SOCCOM (10mm)
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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by gozer » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:50 pm

TrashMan wrote:Nah..a. greatsword is in the 1.6-4 kg range...usually weighs around 3-3.5 kg.

And the Automag itself is in the same weight/size class as the desert eagle.

Against zombies, you don' want penetration - you want tissue damage - as much as you can. The right type of bullet is just as advantageous as a higher caliber. Granted, something like .45 might be better. Or maybe SOCCOM (10mm)


well, tissue damage ... against zeds the headshots are the the only hits that count, so what would be needed would be ammo that can penetrate skull (pretty much any ammo can do that) and do enough damage to the brain to put the zombie out of action. or maybe that wouldn't even be necessary, just do enough damage to the brain to kinda slow the zombie down or make it less of a threat (seriously hamper its ability to move / attack). if even low damage would be enough then I'd deffinitely ditch any .45 or .50 weapons ... 9mm gives you more ammo (both shots per clip and ammount of spare ammo and clips for weight carried), lower caliber weapons are usualy lighter (not a huge difference, but it again can mean extra clip or two of ammo while keeping the same weight carried) and the lower recoil makes it easier to aim between shots, not to mention less strain/fatigue for the shooter (there deffinitely is difference between shooting 50 rounds from Desert Eagle / Automag or 50 rounds from 9mm handgun)

availability of .50 ammo is another thing ... there is crapload of handguns using 9mm or .40 ammo (or .45 in US ... not so common in Europe), but not so many weapons using .50, which means not so many .50 ammo scattered around ... and if scavenging for supplies in post-zombiecalypse world you'd probably want weapon you have best chance finding ammo for. Not likely that would be the Automag or another handgun that uses .50 ammo.



as for the greatsword ... well, you'd still probably want to carry crowbar in case you need to pry open door or crate, you wouldn't want to do that with your greatsword. and since carrying both seems like waste of weight ...

on the other hand, greatsword gives you way better reach than crowbar, and unlike crowbar it could actually be used as primary weapon to save ammo when engaging lone zombies (crowbar would be more of a last resort weapon when things go horribly wrong)

and another thing, carry a greatsword ... how? or, where? engaging the zombies would most likely not be your first choice, most likely you'd try to avoid them if possible. now imagine that you're somewhere in deserted city looking for supplies. you have backpack on your back, pistol in holster (on waist or tigh), SMG or rifle eighter in hands or on shoulder sling ... where would you have the greatsword (that unwieldy thing from that youtube video)? backpack makes carrying it on the back next to impossible, even without backpack with scabbard (or whatever thing/system holding the sword) on the back it is real pain in the ass to draw the sword and even bigger p.i.t.a. to put it back, scabbard on waist is impractical when you have to run (not to mention do things like climb/jump over fences or through windows or whatnot to escape pursuing zombies) ...

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by Erinys » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:14 pm

Even a man walking and carrying a pack can carry a fairly large blade, so long as he stows his gear intelligently. If you look at this simple photo of a Claymore in a shoulder sheath, you can pretty much infer how it would be done. The sheath goes underneath the back pack. You put on the sword first, so that in emergencies you could drop the pack without being disarmed.

The issue is strength. Carrying gear does take physical strength and endurance, and not every human body is created equal. Some people will need to travel lighter than others in order to survive, and I'm sure that no one's plan would survive contact with the enemy.

But to bring things back to Fort Zombie terms, and not just stay trapped in the bleak and hopeless Romero-esque scenarios where almost everyone appears to be kinda dumb and not very inclined to Play Nice With Others, and the individual has to spend the Apocalypse alone:

A strong man or woman could be a much better weapons platform, and carry a lot more killing power and ammo, if he had other people in his group whose job it was to carry and take care of other things. Food, water, medical supplies, spare ammo, tools, batteries--all of those things could be distributed into the care of people whose job was NOT to fight, but to run or retreat to cover whenever possible.

Humans in general are generalists--we can all learn to do just about anything in a mediocre fashion, given the need. But we also have an amazing knack for both specializing and unifying: a person can get very good at one or two things, and then work together with other people who are good at other things, to create a whole which is much greater than the sum of its parts.

The problem I see with this thread and many other Z-Apoc threads is the associated Island Mentality. The one point I hoped to get across to people with Fort Zombie, since I feel it has been lost in the years since Richard Matheson wrote I am Legend, is simply this: you never want to be the Last Man Standing in this world.

If the apocalypse is now, and you're not trying to save anyone or work together with anyone else? As a human being, you're already dead. You just haven't got the sense to lie down. :wink:

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by phoenixdracul » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:30 pm

You need at least 7 males and 16 females for enough genetic diversity to have a long lasting community if i remember correctly. Cant save and then repopulate the world by yourself. ^.^ As a side note, I suppose a vehicle could be used as an anti zombie weapon, especially if built correctly.

So picture this a front end loader, replace the bucket with a spinning rod with either spikes, chains or spiked chains mounted to it, so that as it spins it shreds everything in its path. Then, you surround the base with wire fencing to prevent anything from getting too close, then enclose the cab so 2-3 people can sit there, 1 driver and 2 lookouts/gunners. Then you add an enclosed trailer with several gun ports and a fenced in roof so you can have gunners inside and out. Include a movable bridge so you can get from the loader to the trailer without going on the ground. Then you can carry a massive number of supplies and survivors to and from your base pretty securely and decimate any zombies that come near. Paint some flames on the sides for added awesomeness. Add on a few machine guns like browning .30 or .50 cal or an m60 or two and you have plenty of fire power to handle most jobs. Could even carry a few explosive weapons for taking out more densely packed zombies. Would actually be relatively easy to construct if you could obtain all the components, and you could easily customize it to your needs.

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Re: best anti-zombie weapons

Post by U.E.D.C. » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:13 pm

Okay, but where will you find the gear? What about fuel? Would the engine not just attract more zombies? What if the roads are blocked? What if there is break down?
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