Things to mod

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Gazz
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Things to mod

Post by Gazz » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:08 pm

While waiting for 1.04 (to see if that fixes the 1.03 camera changes) I took a peek into modding.

The most glaring issue seems to be weapons. They are... illogical, captain.
Their angle of inaccuracy (deviation in degrees) increases with distance.
That is quite ridiculous.
Bullets don't zig zag in mid air to follow a spread like this:

Code: Select all

  *****************
   ***************
    *************
         ***
         ***
         ***
          *
          *
          *

And that's the exact flight path if the deviation switches from 5° for point blank range to 10° for medium range. Don't tell me that looks okay. =P

The deviation of a firearm has to be the same for all ranges. At long range those 5° will just mean a greater distance to the intended target point.

And yes, I do know about ballistics and wind effects but at 5-30m, which is about the range in FZ, all firearms can be assumed direct fire weapons.

That's something that definitely needs fixing. Luckily, that one's easy to do.



Firearm ranges in FZ are very low. I'm not saying that a .38 S&W should be useable as a sniper weapon - it's deviation makes that impossible anyway.
But hitting a zombie-sized target at 20 or 30m is perfectly possible with a handgun. Forget headshots at that range but you can still fill the zombie with bullets until it stops zombieing.



Another issue are semi-automatic and double-action weapons. A .38 S&W has no mechanical inhibitors to reduce the rate of fire to 1/sec.

This is a feature for burst/automatic weapons. For fast firing weapons with light ammunitions (like the M-16) it sure makes a lot of sense to limit them to burst fire.
In fact, many (including military) M-16 versions don't have a full auto mode. (so soldiers don't use it as a personal MG =)
However, since the ROF is around 14/sec, in game you should still be able to fire maybe 2-3 bursts /sec.


The AK-47 has no burst mode. At all.
In game it should always fire full auto. With a ROF of about 10/sec (partially due to the heavier ammo but mostly a judgement call of the designers) the number of rounds fired is still controllable.



And no, I'm not even a real gun nut. =)
Those are just issues that either defy the laws of physics so obviously as to feel wrong, or were mere errors in research. (such as an AK-47 with a burst mode)

I could mod this but I'm not going to. First I'll wait for the 1.04 patch. If that one doesn't fix the involuntary zoom with mouse look, there's no point since I wouldn't be able to play that. Oh, I tried, but constantly having to adjust the zoom level is just too aggravating.
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Windexglow
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Windexglow » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:08 pm

It's probably gameplay designed; By having increasing deviation you gain more control over what ranges weapons are good for.
FZ takes place in very close combat too. Most guns are going to be able to hit a zombie in this game, making most guns obsolete if they had their correct accuracy.

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Gazz
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Gazz » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:52 pm

Oh, I figured that it's intentional and don't expect it to ever "get patched". That's why this is in the modding section and not suggestions. =)

It just feels totally wrong for shots missing the county the barn is in, even though it's no range at all for a stubby little .38.
I'm not new to modding so rather than play a game the feels wrong, I'd alter the deal.

Rifles are not at all obsolete if they have a much smaller deviation.
A .357 magnum might be a fine zomstopper but you're not getting headshots at range. And if you spray you'll do a lot of reloading.

Besides, the game does model loss of penetration at longer ranges so rifle ammo would still have a serious advantage.
Let's see that football helmet stop a 7.62x39.
(I'm so not getting into the old argument of penetration vs energy transfer =)

Too bad there are no accessible bell towers. A Garand with iron sights is good to range for pretty much the whole town map. (like practically every rifle produced during or since WWII...)
For headshots at range you'd want a scope but owell.
Anyway, range should be increased, especially for rifles. Shooting peo...err... zombies before they can shoot you is kinda the point of having a rifle.
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Kyecthus
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Kyecthus » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:47 pm

Effective range is entirely based on your character's skill because of the deviation. If you go into the save file and you get your rifle/Garand skill to 100, you can take zombies out well before they ever get a chance to even activate. Given that all the city streets are a perfectly straight grid, if you max out the draw distance, you can take out 3 or 4 zombies before they even get a bead on you.

...hell, if you take the Magnum out with 100 skill, you can head shot just the same as the rifle for those ranges.

I do agree that the differing angles of deviation for range is a little odd, but try to think of what would happen if someone picked up a pistol with no knowledge or training with a firearm and told him to shoot at the former human of a target. Happens all the times in zombie movies where someone is just psychologically unable to do it and fires off at some horrible angle.

Thought most M-16s, least the National Guard issued ones, were chambered for single shot only these days.

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Mecron
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Mecron » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:30 pm

the bullet does NOT switch trajectory in mid-air :roll: The decrease is accuracy represents the range bands where a user will encounter a reasonable jump in the skill required to hit the target. Point blank is well within point and shoot range for almost anyone picking up a pistol. Standard actually requires a lil aiming, and depending on the gun and its handling characteristics that means a more difficult shot for most people.

And as others have stated, the skill level of the character has a far greater effect on long range shots and point blank ones. Gun porn aside, it is a rather elegant that way :P

Kyecthus
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Kyecthus » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:40 am

I'd still kill for a scope. Like a little zoomed circle around the reticule even. So frustrating accidentally winging a zombie in the shoulder instead of a nice clean head shot when they stagger ever so slightly.

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Gazz
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Gazz » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:19 pm

Mecron wrote:the bullet does NOT switch trajectory in mid-air :roll:

Aye, that's certainly true. But a gun also doesn't become half as accurate just because the target takes one step back and into the next range level.

The deviation in degrees is constant for a weapon. (at least for the small ranges encountered in FZ)
That far targets are still more difficult to hit even with a constant deviation is because the farther the target is away, the higher the "distance off" that this deviation translates into. Also the same target appears smaller because it fills a smaller angle of the arc of vision.

Don't take me wrong. I'm not saying this is a super important bug that must be fixed yesterday. It's merely illogical and very counter-intuitive to anyone who has fired a gun before.
So it's something to put on the list of "things to mod".

For the current 3 ranges system to work in any believable way there'd need to be visual clues for the target range, like a red/yellow/green crosshairs showing which range the target is currently in.
Actually, no red/green. Make that a shape change. Red/green blindness is one of the first items every web designer learns. Or should have learned.

That the system exists at all is all kinds of great because it allows the adjustment of the damage/penetration values which is simply impossible for many games.
Like shotguns are awesome at close range against soft targets but will have trouble penetrating a leather jacket at a range that is laughable for a rifle. And now this can be modeled. =)

This is no "FZ sucks" or "I'm right you're wrong" post. I don't mind disagreeing with you or with the way any game works.
It's the mindset of the modder. We don't automatically credit developers with the infinite wisdom required to achieve a zen-like game balance with the gold master. And a modder without an overabundance of ego just doesn't get anything done because he'd constantly be asking "may I" or "is this really the right way". =P
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Mecron
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Mecron » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:18 pm

true...you have summed up the modder mindset pretty well :thumbsup:


But for the record, some of us have fired a lot of guns in non "target shooting" situations. But then, that reference would be the other aspect of the modder mindset wouldn't it? :lol:

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Gazz
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Gazz » Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:43 pm

Mecron wrote:But then, that reference would be the other aspect of the modder mindset wouldn't it? :lol:

Ah, the irresistible force and the immovable object. That poor little game would just wind up in the crossfire. =P

For other games (Mostly X3) I've done quite a bit of work. One large-ish mod even got included in the next official patch.
Some AI improvements / features are still amazing but one or two projects either had unfixable side-effects due to engine limitations or ended up so blasted effective that I decided to not update them for the latest game in the series (TC).

What good is a a cool feature if the AI cannot be trained to make use of it? It becomes just another player-only cheat. Boooooring.
Yes, I am the kind of elitist bastard who knows what's good for the players. =P
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zanzibar196
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Re: Things to mod

Post by zanzibar196 » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:21 pm

Gazz wrote:
Mecron wrote:But then, that reference would be the other aspect of the modder mindset wouldn't it? :lol:

Ah, the irresistible force and the immovable object. That poor little game would just wind up in the crossfire. =P

For other games (Mostly X3) I've done quite a bit of work. One large-ish mod even got included in the next official patch.
Some AI improvements / features are still amazing but one or two projects either had unfixable side-effects due to engine limitations or ended up so blasted effective that I decided to not update them for the latest game in the series (TC).

What good is a a cool feature if the AI cannot be trained to make use of it? It becomes just another player-only cheat. Boooooring.
Yes, I am the kind of elitist bastard who knows what's good for the players. =P


...so... when can we expect a sword of the stars mod from you? :twisted:
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Mecron
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Mecron » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:12 pm

You should look into a job someday gazz. Always fun to go pro.

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GammaPaladin
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Re: Things to mod

Post by GammaPaladin » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:11 am

I'd still kill for a scope. Like a little zoomed circle around the reticule even. So frustrating accidentally winging a zombie in the shoulder instead of a nice clean head shot when they stagger ever so slightly.

Honestly I'd just like to see a rifle with a scope even if it had no game effect... A scoped .30-06 is a ubiquitous firearm in the US. Every deer hunter has one, and there are tons of people who hunt for sport.

It's not really important, it just feels weird that you find rarities like a Beretta AR-90, but not the item I'd expect to see in every sporting goods store in the country.

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TrashMan
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Re: Things to mod

Post by TrashMan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:34 am

Mecron wrote:You should look into a job someday gazz. Always fun to go pro.



Every modders dream Mec....every modders dream. :wink:

Frak..I wish there were more than 2 game developers in Croatia... :cry:
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halo07guy wrote: Praise be to Trashman! All will revel in his holy modding skillz!
And I say onto you: Blessed are those who play my mods - for they are good!

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Sevain
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Re: Things to mod

Post by Sevain » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:38 pm

If you have the skill to survive without eating you could become the third one and start your own project. :)

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mango
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Re: Things to mod

Post by mango » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:26 pm

Things to mod it said, Triffids I thought. :idea:

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