Submachine Guns

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Nightshade
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Submachine Guns

Post by Nightshade » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Thought about this one on and off, and decided to at least mention it.

Currently, submachineguns are of a bit problematic utility. Not because they're bad at killing zombies, since especially at close range a hit will usually just rip hell out of them. But there are at least three issues with them.

1. No one starts with it. You can manually buy it on Ben, but none of the default starts begin with it. And no survivor gets it.
2. They blow through ammo like nobody's business; even the assault rifles don't seem to burn it as fast.
3. There's no enhancer item like there is with every other weapon skill.

The second problem is probably a balance for the weapon's close range effectiveness (though it does, in practice, mean its pretty common to have SMGs you'll never use at all), but the other two mean that at the moment unless you decide to stubborn it out on Ben, the only use an SMG gets is stuffed into the hands of a high Finesse character at the final battle when you've got a lot of 9mm or .45 cal ammo. I'd suggest either rolling them in with autofire skill, or giving a few of the military or police background characters the skill. It wouldn't hurt for their to be an enhancer item, either.

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DaNuker
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by DaNuker » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:00 pm

Maybe Ben with Criminal skill should start up with a some points in Submachine gun. Make it a little more useful.

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Mecron
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Mecron » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:31 pm

sometimes the point of a submachine gun is to NOT need much skill ;)

Nightshade
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Nightshade » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:20 am

Mecron wrote:sometimes the point of a submachine gun is to NOT need much skill ;)


Maybe so, but as it is its not an attractive weapon to give to the main character--unless, I guess, you're playing a no-weapon-skill guy, but unless you find it early, you'll still likely be better off with, say, a shotgun.

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AlanF5
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by AlanF5 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:56 pm

Are submachineguns one-handed? They might give an unskilled character nearly the killing power of a shotgun without compromising mobility.
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Nightshade
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Nightshade » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:41 pm

AlanF5 wrote:Are submachineguns one-handed? They might give an unskilled character nearly the killing power of a shotgun without compromising mobility.


I don't believe they're treated so, no. And honestly, it doesn't help much if they can't hit anything much beyond melee range. As I noted, you can't use them very frequently because of the ammo consumption (though I'm presuming NPCs manage that a bit better than you can consistently do as a human, since they presumably hold the trigger down for a precise length of time).

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Mecron
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Mecron » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:57 pm

its...a...machine...gun.

Nightshade
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Nightshade » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:26 pm

Mecron wrote:its...a...machine...gun.


Come on, Mecron, don't blow me off here. I understand that's what it is. But currently you have to decide if you want to bother to use one when its blowing through common pistol ammo at an amazing rate, and since almost no one starts out any good with it, that's not attractive.

That's the gig, really. Assault rifles blow through ammo pretty fast too (though not apparently quite as fast as the SMG, but that could be illusory), but you can find good reasons to put them on people for two reasons: 1. Some characters actually start with the skill, some fairly high, and 2. Not much else uses the ammo (nothing but assault rifles use the 5.56/.223 ammo in the game, and you're not unlikely to find AK-47s but no Garands). In addition, when you have someone who has at least some skill in the assault rifle, there's an easy and predictable way to get the skill enhancer object (those medical huts with the blood pack in it are easy to recognize and come up pretty frequently).

Currently, unless you build your version of Ben for it, the SMGs are pretty strongly counter-selected for use, because they don't show a consistent enough benefit to justify the ammo they blow through. And that's largely an artifact of the fact no one starts out knowing how to use one, and there's nothing likely to help them be good with it once they start.

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Mecron
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Mecron » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:08 pm

not exactly blowing you off but pointing out you are taking a fun hand held blender and trying to winge about it. Enjoy the fact its a close range zombie disintigrator or don't use it. You have plenty of other weapons and for the record, apart from the shotgun, the SMG is the least skill needed weapon.

Nightshade
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Nightshade » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:55 pm

Mecron wrote:not exactly blowing you off but pointing out you are taking a fun hand held blender and trying to winge about it. Enjoy the fact its a close range zombie disintigrator or don't use it. You have plenty of other weapons and for the record, apart from the shotgun, the SMG is the least skill needed weapon.


And if it didn't blow through ammo that could supply a lot of pistol users (albeit at less effectiveness) with weapons, that'd be fine. I just think as is it likely only gets used in the final battle when someone has someone who has no weapon skill anyway and has happened to accumulate so much ammo in one of the two common pistol calibers that he figures he might as well let them spray and pray.

But if that's the result you want, that's as it is.

Imgran
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Re: Submachine Guns

Post by Imgran » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:53 am

I don't see why the Tommy Gun is in the same category as the other SMG's. It's kind of a fish out of water there. The weapon feels and handles much more like the assault rifles, even with its relatively shorter range and poorer armor piercing power. Even though it is, in fact, technically THE titular SMG, the other weapons in the same category in this game are the three UZIs -- much more like each other than they are like the Thompson. I see no particular reason to put it where it is.

That said, compared to the M-16 and even the AK-47, the Thompson is exactly what it should be -- an obsolete automatic gun which fires pistol ammo and so will never have the penetration or stopping power of more modern counterparts. So while I quibble about categories, the in-game technology certainly works properly..

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