Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Talk about all things to do with the sequel to our flagship 4X title.

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ForceUser
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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by ForceUser » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:40 am

One thing to keep in mind Martigen is that the stated goals for both the Pit and Ground Pounders is to directly fund all Kerberos development. This includes future games (might be for a ganre you like), support for past games including support for SotS2. So by buying either the Pit or GP you are in fact directly supporting SotS2 (in the only way you are allowed to because reasons) AND getting a game out fo it. An alternative is of course to buy the game as a gift for a friend.

Ask around amongst your friends, especially older ones who might have played roguelikes or Panzer general like games in their youth if they would like a copy or for a birthday. You get to support SotS2 and give someone a gift that they will really appreciate. From the looks of it Kerb is cycling through the ganres making games they themselves (as old coots) would like to play. We'll get to the RPGs and top down shooters soon enough (faster if there is more support).
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DirectorNeumann
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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by DirectorNeumann » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:09 am

I like SotS, even though a few tadbits of the universe itself (like, say, Catholics being the only major religion left, everyone else would rather see humanity burn than see them in any 'in-charge' capacity) is... not likable.

However, after the SotS2 debacle, trust among the fanbase itself is... poor at best. It's considered to some on the same level as the MoO3 insanity (and please note that my first Master of Orion game was MoO3... and I liked it even though I thought it needed tweaking)... but I degress. I simply played SotS2 after every update because I want to know how you guys are going to make it fun. :D

Surely we can just get along... but sometimes the universe crushes that at times.

Now, I see The Pit and Ground Pounders as a sort of redemption for Kerberos. I see that you've found out that currently the Video Gaming industry is essentially the Movie Industry during the Studio Model era... and with EA and Microsoft being the biggest of the abusers of the system, well I can see why you went "Let's try at least a game with a publisher, everyone else is apparently going indie right now". You crashed and burned by both your accord and the publisher's.

The Pit and Mindgames showed us that with essentially pitiful budgets, you make great games. So, I can give it a slightly heavier venom to Paradox as a publisher.

Ground Pounders is something I'm extremely exited for because it's essentially Panzer Generals IN SPACE! (with adamantly a few bits added on for an unique flare) which I played in loved back in the day... although an I-Panzer '44/Panzer Elite style SotS game would be insanely awesome. :D

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:52 am

Ok, well, you don't like it. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is "not likeable" in general. I personally have gotten really sucked into it and really enjoy it.

What do you mean by "Catholics being the only major religion left"? I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember it being said somewhere that there are still remnants of many old religions but that Catholicism is just the only 'old' single old one that has sufficient population to be important on the scale of politics (and that's not counting newer religions like Utilitarianism, the smaller movements that can be loosely described as various sorts of "alien worship" or "human pride", etc.). Also, an apocalypse (or two... or three) happened. Wouldn't you expect a lot of the old world order to be gone or at least no longer holding a significant presence?

What do you mean about the alien hostility to humanity being "in-charge"? I don't feel I can respond to that prior to further clarification without ending up straw-manning you.


Um, what exactly is non-trust-meriting about 1 year and 11 months of utterly unpaid/uncompensated work supporting the game after release? They don't get any money from Paradox for putting out the patches, and they don't get any money from sales until Paradox's initial investment in development is recouped (which as I understand hasn't happened yet). Wasn't one of the main issues with the MoO3 case that there were only ever 2 official patches post-release and so the game would never have reached a playable state without tons of community-modding? The game still has significant flaws (AI, loading times, diplomacy, CTD's, etc.) and has always at its essence been a bit niche (see amount of depth/length of games), but the flaws have been getting better pretty continuously over time (that is, they are waaaaay better than at launch and substantially better than 6 months ago) and look to keep getting better in the future.

I agree that their success at returning on fans' investments with the Pit/Mindgames is definitely trust meriting, but I would say that they have been meriting some amount of regained trust ever since a couple months after the game released.

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by DirectorNeumann » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:56 am

ScoSteSal118 wrote:Ok, well, you don't like it. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is "not likeable" in general. I personally have gotten really sucked into it and really enjoy it.

What do you mean by "Catholics being the only major religion left"? I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember it being said somewhere that there are still remnants of many old religions but that Catholicism is just the only 'old' single old one that has sufficient population to be important on the scale of politics (and that's not counting newer religions like Utilitarianism, the smaller movements that can be loosely described as various sorts of "alien worship" or "human pride", etc.). Also, an apocalypse (or two... or three) happened. Wouldn't you expect a lot of the old world order to be gone or at least no longer holding a significant presence?

In the end I would think that non of the major religions left would have the amount of political clout that is shown in the universe, between the very nasty 'Catholics must not be in charge!' minefield they got in the world politic and some very GOOD reasons not to trust the Catholics in politics in general, I would consider all the old religions either wiped out or essentially dead as atheism would take over (because of said apocalypses).
What do you mean about the alien hostility to humanity being "in-charge"? I don't feel I can respond to that prior to further clarification without ending up straw-manning you.

No, ever since Catholicism was essentially 'dethroned', the other religions (and the more venomous Protestants) would never let Catholics get 'in-charge' again since the last time it screwed mankind over a lot... it's either they don't get that power or humanity pays for it.

Um, what exactly is non-trust-meriting about 1 year and 11 months of utterly unpaid/uncompensated work supporting the game after release? They don't get any money from Paradox for putting out the patches, and they don't get any money from sales until Paradox's initial investment in development is recouped (which as I understand hasn't happened yet). Wasn't one of the main issues with the MoO3 case that there were only ever 2 official patches post-release and so the game would never have reached a playable state without tons of community-modding? The game still has significant flaws (AI, loading times, diplomacy, CTD's, etc.) and has always at its essence been a bit niche (see amount of depth/length of games), but the flaws have been getting better pretty continuously over time (that is, they are waaaaay better than at launch and substantially better than 6 months ago) and look to keep getting better in the future.

I agree that their success at returning on fans' investments with the Pit/Mindgames is definitely trust meriting, but I would say that they have been meriting some amount of regained trust ever since a couple months after the game released.

Well, I come from the Spacebattles Forums, a big fan of Sword of the Stars. We got a few true believers in there (which I am a part of) but sadly the entire debacle absolutely ruined their trust. Like any consumer, they trusted the team to get a working game out. Since the 'Paradox is a bastard publisher' isn't that widely known then, Kerberos got all the blame and when they apologized and said essentially 'we fucked up. We're sorry and we will try to make it right'... they were hopeful but once the 'original planned release version' signal was given, they were feeling betrayed that that version was the 'release' version. To them it's a double betrayal... and that pretty much un-personed any game after SotS1.

Still, what do you think about my I-Panzer '44/Panzer Elite type game idea? Being a tank commander/'toon commander in the SotS universe? Insanely modifiable? Yes please!

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by Slashman » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:34 am

I think we're at the point now (and have been for a while), where I can safely say that people still bitching about the release state of SotS2 need to grow up.

Pretty much any other developer in that position would have cut and run. These guys instead buckled down and continued to work on the game relentlessly for months after with patches at an insane rate. They made an expansion and still continue to support the game out of their own pockets. Take a look and see what the latest word is for Legends of Pegasus. Oh that's right, nothing!

Anyone who is still unsatisfied with Kerberos' efforts, needs to rethink exactly how much they are owed for spending $40.
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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by Lucian » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:57 am

It's considered to some on the same level as the MoO3 insanity (and please note that my first Master of Orion game was MoO3... and I liked it even though I thought it needed tweaking)..


Once again you compare to SOTS2 to MOO3 and I find it very hard to take you seriously because the comparison is just ludicrous. Look I'm truly sorry that MOO3 was your first MOO game, that's tragic indeed, but oh my god "needed tweaking" !!? :lol:

Here's the difference:
SOTS2 was fixed, MOO3 wasn't (and was broken by design). Seems subtle, but it makes all the difference.

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:32 pm

DirectorNeumann wrote:
ScoSteSal118 wrote:"SSS stuff"

In the end I would think that non of the major religions left would have the amount of political clout that is shown in the universe, between the very nasty 'Catholics must not be in charge!' minefield they got in the world politic and some very GOOD reasons not to trust the Catholics in politics in general, I would consider all the old religions either wiped out or essentially dead as atheism would take over (because of said apocalypses).

I am afraid I am not familiar with either of the reasons ("nasty minefield" and "some very GOOD reasons") that you gave as to why Catholics would not be in charge, and I am also not clear on how they connect to ALL religion being effectively banished from the public sphere...

Also, I am not sure I follow the jump from "I personally disagree with a projection made in the creation of the setting's backstory" to "the entire backstory is distinctly unlikeable." I mean, a year or two back when I was pretty sure climate change was bs (background/family, please don't ask, not certain what my position is right now but definitely not that), I still found the lore greatly intriguing and interesting and fun even though it projected a near-worst case scenario for climate change causing an apocalypse.


DirectorNeumann wrote:
What do you mean about the alien hostility to humanity being "in-charge"? I don't feel I can respond to that prior to further clarification without ending up straw-manning you.

No, ever since Catholicism was essentially 'dethroned', the other religions (and the more venomous Protestants) would never let Catholics get 'in-charge' again since the last time it screwed mankind over a lot... it's either they don't get that power or humanity pays for it.

I am confused. I thought that part was about human-alien relations, not intra-human religious rivalries. Just...huh?


DirectorNeumann wrote:
"SSS stuff"

Well, I come from the Spacebattles Forums, a big fan of Sword of the Stars. We got a few true believers in there (which I am a part of) but sadly the entire debacle absolutely ruined their trust. Like any consumer, they trusted the team to get a working game out. Since the 'Paradox is a bastard publisher' isn't that widely known then, Kerberos got all the blame and when they apologized and said essentially 'we fucked up. We're sorry and we will try to make it right'... they were hopeful but once the 'original planned release version' signal was given, they were feeling betrayed that that version was the 'release' version. To them it's a double betrayal... and that pretty much un-personed any game after SotS1.

Yeah, the "All-Clear" announcement did occur to me while I was writing my previous post as something that seemed rather premature/left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth (probably should have mentioned that in that post). I can see people getting annoyed by that, but "betrayal"-based utter rejection of the game, let alone the developer, seems rather petty/unreasonable to me, especially with the whole "they are on track to support the game for zero monetary returns until the game is as good as and then better than the pre-release sales pitch" detail.

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by DirectorNeumann » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:42 pm

ScoSteSal118 wrote:**SNIP**

Well, the last time that the Catholics had enough political clout to essentially rule nations we got the Crusades and the various Protestant/Catholic wars (some with a Pope's secret approval, some just to get close enough to the Pope, among other things). Thus has caused major trauma to the other religions in fear that they might get wiped off the face of the Earth. This left a political mindfield after the Catholic religion got 'dethroned' as it were. Some historians suggest that Catholics also initiated essentially mini-holocausts of Jews, Islamic, Gypsies, and later even Protestant practitioners.

Also, I am not sure I follow the jump from "I personally disagree with a projection made in the creation of the setting's backstory" to "the entire backstory is distinctly unlikeable." I mean, a year or two back when I was pretty sure climate change was bs (background/family, please don't ask, not certain what my position is right now but definitely not that), I still found the lore greatly intriguing and interesting and fun even though it projected a near-worst case scenario for climate change causing an apocalypse.

I liked plenty of the backstory, it's just that Catholics being in any position to essentially go 'fuck anyone' is just asking for the death of the human race at worst, genocide of an entire religion at best.

I am confused. I thought that part was about human-alien relations, not intra-human religious rivalries. Just...huh?
I didn't say anything about aliens, but the other religions of the world would never let Catholics rise again. It's essentially a can of worms you DON'T want to open. In some cases that can of worms means humanity effectively dies out due to the hidden hostility between Catholics and other religions.

Yeah, the "All-Clear" announcement did occur to me while I was writing my previous post as something that seemed rather premature/left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth (probably should have mentioned that in that post). I can see people getting annoyed by that, but "betrayal"-based utter rejection of the game, let alone the developer, seems rather petty/unreasonable to me, especially with the whole "they are on track to support the game for zero monetary returns until the game is as good as and then better than the pre-release sales pitch" detail.

True, but twice burned, never trusting apparently.

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by Nall White » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:56 pm

Slashman wrote:I think we're at the point now (and have been for a while), where I can safely say that people still bitching about the release state of SotS2 need to grow up.

Pretty much any other developer in that position would have cut and run. These guys instead buckled down and continued to work on the game relentlessly for months after with patches at an insane rate. They made an expansion and still continue to support the game out of their own pockets. Take a look and see what the latest word is for Legends of Pegasus. Oh that's right, nothing!

Anyone who is still unsatisfied with Kerberos' efforts, needs to rethink exactly how much they are owed for spending $40.

Agreed. I think the only main complaints are what BT brought up

BlueTemplar wrote:I don't know about others, but I don't care about the scenarios, I don't care about the diplomacy, I'm not sure I even care about the AI because I'm going to try to play mostly MP now...
What bothers me are the things that make the management of your empire annoying, like the very bad fleet manager (compared to SotS1), the very bad planet manager (again, compared to SotS1), and the many little things like not being told when a hiver gate was deployed, or that you changed government, no map indication for fixed random menaces like swarms, etc, etc...

Prime era style fleet, battle, and trade (trade over view should stay) manager should be put into this game. Also the comparative analysis was better in prime. I believe (haven't played prime in 2 years) that is would give an accounting of all of the ships encountered before the tech was researched. Also, adding construction and colonization to the mission system (this was the best improvement over prime. all complaints against it have been b!tching about now they have to build stations actually plan ahead). And, where are the rest of the randoms? All of this would negate any legitimate complaints (I'm going to b!tch until operations are in the game :lol: ) about the current state of the game....IMHO. One last thing. Any expansions to this game will have to include a tutorial scenario for each faction. The videos were good for prime, but this is a more complex game.
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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by Erinys » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:20 pm

Neumann: There a presently one billion Catholics on this planet. If other religions intended to "prevent them from rising", they've failed rather spectacularly. There are eight billion Catholics in the far future of the SotSverse, but in no way is Catholicism the only OR the dominant religion of the human race in the universe I've created; Utilitarianism is much more popular and has much more impact on the secular society surrounding it, including the bulk of Sol Force personnel.

Your view of the SotSverse appears to be poorly informed, and incomplete at best. But the universe I've created speaks for itself, for those who actually read the fiction. Just as the work and dedication of my company speak for themselves, for those who are willing to see them.

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by DirectorNeumann » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:43 pm

Erinys wrote:Neumann: There a presently one billion Catholics on this planet. If other religions intended to "prevent them from rising", they've failed rather spectacularly. There are eight billion Catholics in the far future of the SotSverse, but in no way is Catholicism the only OR the dominant religion of the human race in the universe I've created; Utilitarianism is much more popular and has much more impact on the secular society surrounding it, including the bulk of Sol Force personnel.

Your view of the SotSverse appears to be poorly informed, and incomplete at best. But the universe I've created speaks for itself, for those who actually read the fiction. Just as the work and dedication of my company speak for themselves, for those who are willing to see them.

--Arinn

It's political power really... but let's let that go. Don't want this into a religious pissing match.

Anyway, I hope that you guys get some awesome games out. :D

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Mecron
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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by Mecron » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:45 pm

Actually you don't want to violate the board rules on arguing over and disrespect to any religion.

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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by DirectorNeumann » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:59 pm

Mecron wrote:Actually you don't want to violate the board rules on arguing over and disrespect to any religion.

So I was nipping it in the bud... no please excuse me let's get to the topic at hand.

YOUR NEW GAMES! :D

Also, are you guys open to suggestions?

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silvaril
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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by silvaril » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:02 am

Heya

I vaguely recall there being sub-forums dedicated to folks making suggestions... ;)
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Re: Kerberos' new games and SOTS2

Post by DirectorNeumann » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:35 am

silvaril wrote:Heya

I vaguely recall there being sub-forums dedicated to folks making suggestions... ;)

Yeah, OFF TO THE SUGGESTIONS FORUM (if the computer would let me)!

But anyway, I think you guys are on the right track going indie... so please continue.

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