SotS II Scenario Editor

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Vengashii
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SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by Vengashii » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:12 am

Will there be a scenario editor-type dealie in SotS2? Or any type of editor? o.o

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by Vengashii » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:00 am

*sneaks this back in*

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amtie
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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by amtie » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:58 am

If SotS 1 is anything to go by, there probably won't.

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by ZedF » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:08 am

You can always use the handicapping tools to make your own scenario. ;)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by Herr Pinguin » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:17 pm

ZedF wrote:You can always use the handicapping tools to make your own scenario. ;)


Good point, but I'd like to be able to set alternate victory conditions too. AFAIK, Kerberos hasn't specified yet if/how alternate victory conditions may appear in SotSII, but I'm always in favor of more customization options for the player. :D

If it were feasible in the engine, fixed starting locations and other stuff like that could be nice too..

(..Of course, I'm only a fan of customizable 'feature creep' if the Devs have the time and resources to solidfy the core gameplay first.. some things like this might be better reserved for expansions)

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by ZedF » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:24 pm

You can certainly make alternate victory/loss conditions, all you have to do is specify what they are and abide by them. Just because the game doesn't recognize them for you doesn't mean you aren't capable of doing it on your own. :thumbsup:
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Herr Pinguin
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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by Herr Pinguin » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:25 pm

ZedF wrote:You can certainly make alternate victory/loss conditions, all you have to do is specify what they are and abide by them. Just because the game doesn't recognize them for you doesn't mean you aren't capable of doing it on your own. :thumbsup:


That's.. an ok suggestion.. but there are a lot of problems with it, and I'm sure you were aware of them before you made your post.. so I'll just say: I'd prefer to have some kinds of alt victory conditions built into the game engine, and tracked and enforced by the game. ;)

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by ZedF » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:04 am

Eh, it does have limitations in the form of how complicated you can make the victory conditions to track -- it has to be reasonably simple so you know when you've won/lost, and if intended for a competitive MP game you'd only want to use it with someone you expect will be a good sport about it. Nevertheless, just doing it yourself is by far the simplest option and still opens up a lot of variant potential. I've been using this sort of approach (playing with variant rules and/or start conditions) in many games for many years and it's surprisingly versatile as long as you're a bit creative. Moreover, I know a lot of other folks who embrace exactly this sort of variant play in order to add challenge to and extend the lifespan of well-understood games.

If you're willing to stop playing once it's obvious you've reached a winning position, this isn't that much different. You're just changing the conditions for when you stop a tad. :D
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by RobAK801 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:18 am

While all you say is true Zed I think he is looking for something that will show on his profile other than 50 games started 3 games won, and 2 games lost. Currently your choice is to kill everyone or ally with everyone (that you didn't kill) other than that the game doesn't track.

A conquer x number of worlds and hold them for y turns, or a be the first to build a flagship "tech race" would be cool to have. But the game is also fine the way it is, it just depends on how you feel about the games/wins/losses numbers on you profile.
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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by ZedF » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:30 am

While I agree that more variety in VCs and such could be a good thing, and while I fully expect Kerberos will make an effort to expand detail in this area to some degree given what they've said so far, at some point realism has to kick in.

At the end of the day, given that there are no free feature fairies and that alternate victory conditions have to fall within the realm of what Kerberos considers appropriate for the SotS-verse (i.e. non-military VCs will have to be backed up by military and economic force) there are always going to be fairly strict limits on what VCs will be possible in your average SotS2 game, outside specific scenarios with set goals for that scenario. Kerberos has already mentioned that scenarios were of limited popularity in SotS1, so while we will certainly see some in SotS2 they probably won't be a defining portion of the game feature set. Personally I'm hoping more for a bit more flexible scenarios in terms of game setup, rather than just plain more of them.

Short answer, expect evolutionary improvements in scenario and VC variety in SotS2, not revolutionary ones, I tend to think. Applying your own restrictions/roleplay/VCs/etc to make up the gap between what's available in-game and the experience you're really looking for in any given game will probably continue to be the order of the day.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Herr Pinguin
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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by Herr Pinguin » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:08 am

ZedF wrote:If you're willing to stop playing once it's obvious you've reached a winning position, this isn't that much different. You're just changing the conditions for when you stop a tad. :D


Well, that's one way to look at it, and I have abandoned a few games when I grew tired of them..

But I've actually never lost a game of SotS (I've abandoned 2-3 human games early on because of node-line funny business that I didn't want to work around, but that's it).

This isn't an incredible feat.. I've played far fewer games than someone like you I think. I've never played multiplayer. I also don't play vs hard because I've had a few games where I had to grind through seemingly endless AI fleets, and it can get tedious.. In general, I don't like playing against uber cheating AIs where I'm forced to grind them down through wars of attrition, because that ultimately becomes an exercise in exploiting strategic and tactical advantages that are really just holes in the AI.. (like minelayers). I have experimented with the starting conditions a fair bit though, just to give the AIs a faster start that gives them an edge in the early and midgame.

So my point is: I often 'feel' like I'm winning very early on, and so far that feeling has held true.. But still, I'm generally wary of quitting a game early because I'm always hoping to see a Grand Menace or AI rebellion or scary fleet of Morrigi DNs or any of the other terrors discussed on these forums (in the hope that they'll disrupt my game..)

So, I could probably work on some 'challenges' or make up my own special rules.. but I sort of already do that anyway from a role-playing perspective. (I'm generally generous with my enemies, doing a lot to give them a chance to grow and/or recover, and I try to vary my combat tactics and research strategies in each game.. avoiding the ruthlessly OP'd stuff like minelayers and trying to look for alternative ship/weapon designs instead of spamming the stuff that already works quite well).

I just tend to get bored in open ended, conquer everything games. I have this problem in the Total War games too. Once I've figured out how to build a stable empire and win the tactical battles, there's little point in conquering every single territory. But the 'Grand Achievements' (or whatever the semi-historical missions were called in MTW), add a structure to the game that let me play for something more modest than just 'winning', and I like that kind of 'roleplaying' setting so I can play my faction more as a character (and avoid the all-too-easy paths to victory in the process).

I don't want to derail this thread, but maybe I should search the forums for 'scenario' ideas.

One last point though: Part of the reason I'd like to see alternate victory conditions is that I'd like to see strategic AI that focused on those (presumably) narrow strategic goals. As we've both mentioned: I don't want to see VCs come at the cost of other gameplay. But at the same time: It doesn't work that well to make a special VC about conquer X or build Y if I'm the only one in the game that knows about these special rules/goals. :)

And I agree, I'd like the scenarios more if I could apply them to different galaxy maps and tweak them in other ways, although I understand why that might be hard to do.

PS:
Rob's point is a good one too: The 'meta-game' components like win/loss tallies and badges/achievements can help add some motivation (for some people) to play more.. but only if they're set and recorded in a way that doesn't make them tedious to achieve.

Still, that gives me an idea: If SotSII builds on the new achievement trend in gaming, they could provide an alternative set of goals without adding alt VCs. I can imagine stuff like 'Von Neuman killer' and 'Techno-dominator' giving people some additional goals in their games, much like the alternate victory conditions in MoO2 encouraged me to replay it a number of different times, if only for the different little cutscene endings. (Just having the VN and Unknown Menaces and GMs already adds a ton of replay value.. except that I've never seen most of them.)

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:06 am

Achievements could be fun to have - like killing 6 CR in one shot with a Rending Bore, or to strip an AD using a single red laser DE...

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by ZedF » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:18 pm

Herr Pinguin wrote:
Still, that gives me an idea: If SotSII builds on the new achievement trend in gaming, they could provide an alternative set of goals without adding alt VCs. I can imagine stuff like 'Von Neuman killer' and 'Techno-dominator' giving people some additional goals in their games, much like the alternate victory conditions in MoO2 encouraged me to replay it a number of different times, if only for the different little cutscene endings. (Just having the VN and Unknown Menaces and GMs already adds a ton of replay value.. except that I've never seen most of them.)

If that's the sort of thing you are looking for, you are in luck because achievements are confirmed to be in the cards for SotS2. :thumbsup:

Personally, I don't usually get too excited about those, as I like my goals to have some sort of context to them, but we'll see what Kerberos comes up with.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by Mecron » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:31 pm

zed-you will love em

pingy- :roll:

Veng- As always, the sots community will continue to have access to the same editors we have. :thumbsup:

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Re: SotS II Scenario Editor

Post by Herr Pinguin » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:01 am

ZedF wrote:Personally, I don't usually get too excited about those, as I like my goals to have some sort of context to them, but we'll see what Kerberos comes up with.


I don't really care for achievements either (I haven't made much use of them in any games so far), but I am definitely of the 'completionist' school of gamers in that I (used to) search for each secret room in FPS games, and I try to complete each quest and try each element/mechanic/race/whatever..

So I like the idea behind achievements because they seem like they can help promote/advertise alternate play styles in games where those alternatives are not clearly advertised or integrated/necessary to playing/beating the game.

So, if we can't expect an excess of alt VCs, then alt-VC-like achievements could help to formalize some of those ideas into the game.. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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