Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

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sapphirus
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Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:45 pm

Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by sapphirus » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:39 pm

Happy new year everyone!

After waiting for 2 yrs I finally picked up this game lol. Been playing for a few days and so far it's been quite smooth, had 1 CTD when ALT+Tab but other than that no major issue or bugs yet.

I think the biggest feature change from SotS1 is the mission system, I'm ok with it but the fact that you can't rebase a fleet during a mission is seriously annoying. I am aware that there is a rebase target button in the mission screen but all it does is append a relocate mission after the current mission so the fleet has to return to the old base as part of the current mission then execute the next relocate mission which is simply a waste of time. This implementation is like putting an unpeeled banana on a piece of bread and call it a banana sandwich. Rebase should change the base where the fleet returns to for the CURRENT mission not simply adding another mission to it.

It really annoys me that after I colonize a new remote planet I have to cancel the colonize mission (when the fleet tries to head back) then assign a support mission so the fleet will stay there to support for 1 turn (and next turn trying to go back again) and I have to cancel and reassign EVERY turn thereafter for the support fleet to stay there. Seriously, very annoying.

Some other minor annoyance:
2. Mission performed on the base system of a fleet takes an extra turn to "return" where I could simply cancel it and give the next order (unnecessary micromanagement).

3. The security budget slider doesn't snap to the marker when I move the research slider. From what I've seen so far moving the security slider to the left of the marker will cost more from corruption than the saving so there is never a reason to move it to the left (?) and hence why not just make the marker's value the left most end point on the slider and everything below a compulsory cost?

[Ignore] 4. No native full-screen. Every time I ALT-TAB back to the game I have to ALT-ENTER to get back to full-screen which annoyingly opens up the chat window which I intuitively press ESC trying to close it which DOES NOT close it but even more annoyingly opens up the game menu which CANNOT be closed by pressing ESC again and I have to click "Resume Game" to put the **** menu away then click to close the chat window. (Now I have reassigned the menu key to F10 so ESC will close the chat) (To get proper "full-screen" you have to use the launcher option "Windowed fullscreen") [/Ignore]

5. Re-prototyping when change weapon. I can understand that some weapons have systems implicitly built-in to the ship that are not compatible with others and require entirely new design, but I think it should also depend on the size of the weapon compared to the ship. Imagine swapping a small turret on a dreadnaught with red laser for a PD laser and calling it a new design (sucking millions of funding), we are not selling GPUs are we?
I would suggest making small turret on cruiser class freely retrofittable and small + medium retrofittable on dreadnaught and above.

Anyway I'll give it another few days until my tolerance gets exhausted by these annoying and unnecessary micromanagement, then I'll probably leave it for another yr and come back (if they ever get fixed).

Wish you all have a great new year!
Last edited by sapphirus on Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nspace
Kerbicron Cleric
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Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by Nspace » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:28 pm

sapphirus wrote:2. Mission performed on the base system of a fleet takes an extra turn to "return" where I could simply cancel it and give the next order (unnecessary micromanagement).

Being able to cancel the the mission is a known bug. The intent is for there to be a one turn "rest, refit and resupply" break at the end of any mission.
"Quando omni flunkus, mortati" - "When all else fails, play dead"
SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page
SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

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Aranador
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Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by Aranador » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:33 pm

It really annoys me that after I colonize a new remote planet I have to cancel the colonize mission (when the fleet tries to head back) then assign a support mission so the fleet will stay there to support for 1 turn (and next turn trying to go back again) and I have to cancel and reassign EVERY turn thereafter for the support fleet to stay there. Seriously, very annoying.


Actually what you are doing there is exploiting a bug. Those ships are going back to pick up new stuff to bring to the colony. It is supposed to be less effective to support your colony from a planet far away due to the wasted traveling time. Only the Loa, who 'support' by blowing up the vegetation on the world, don't need to go back for more supplies - and lo and behold, they don't. So this bit is working as intended.

Mission performed on the base system of a fleet takes an extra turn to "return" where I could simply cancel it and give the next order (unnecessary micromanagement).


Again working as intended, you are exploiting - the ships are picking up fresh supplies/fuel, and giving their crews some shore leave.


The rest of your comments I agree or disagree with to some degree, but not enough to further comment.

sapphirus
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Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by sapphirus » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:34 pm

Aranador wrote:Actually what you are doing there is exploiting a bug. Those ships are going back to pick up new stuff to bring to the colony. It is supposed to be less effective to support your colony from a planet far away due to the wasted traveling time. Only the Loa, who 'support' by blowing up the vegetation on the world, don't need to go back for more supplies - and lo and behold, they don't. So this bit is working as intended.


I could also build a naval station on a remote world after research deep space construction, relocate the colonizer and keep it colonize and support there on the spot, whereas if I don't relocate first there is no way to tell it to stay there after colonize even if I have a base there already.

My point is that it's a serious design flaw without rebase which forces you to relocate first before doing anything in your systems if you want to avoid the round trip cost, and that's extra micromanagement. And relocate first won't solve the problem completely, I had a construction fleet that I want to relocate to a system that doesn't have enough CP so I have to construction a naval station first but the **** thing just won't stay there once the station is built.

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Mecron
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Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by Mecron » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:11 pm

this flaw you refer to is based on your need for things to magically be ready for full use after the moment of their creation. Which really isn't something I am comfortable with. The other exploits you are referring to only exist because there are greater priorities on the list of things to fiddle with.

sapphirus
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Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by sapphirus » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:57 am

Mecron wrote:this flaw you refer to is based on your need for things to magically be ready for full use after the moment of their creation. Which really isn't something I am comfortable with. The other exploits you are referring to only exist because there are greater priorities on the list of things to fiddle with.


Why wouldn't you expect to be able to fully use something immediately once it's built?

That example I gave is only one of the many scenarios where a rebase is needed. You could send a constructor to a fully developed system to build a station then realize you want it to stay there but you just can't rebase it even if the system is ready for ages and can support it. You can't order your scout to rebase to a closer system to refuel after a scan, similarly you can't rebase colonizer to closer system to pick up support supply after colonize. You can't rebase a fleet doing whatever mission to defend a nearby system under threat.

All these problems hinder the dynamics of the overall logistic system making it less effective hence I call it a flaw.

http://www.kerberos-productions.com/for ... f7d8dc433e
The same issue was raised more than a yr ago and I wonder if it's ever gonna get addressed...

Just found another exploit if you wanna rebase to the destination of the mission, you can build a CnC at the dest system or bring 2 CnC with the fleet, drop off the ships to the reserve once the mission is done, let the bare CnC go back and build a new fleet with the other ships

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:09 pm

sapphirus wrote:It really annoys me that after I colonize a new remote planet I have to cancel the colonize mission (when the fleet tries to head back) then assign a support mission so the fleet will stay there to support for 1 turn (and next turn trying to go back again) and I have to cancel and reassign EVERY turn thereafter for the support fleet to stay there. Seriously, very annoying.

From my testing (with Hivers), this micromanagement is actually detrimental, since it would seem that a colonization fleet won't give any actual support unless you let it return to a developped colony first (to "pick up supplies" I guess?)

4. No native full-screen. (To get proper "full-screen" you have to use the launcher option "Windowed fullscreen")

So there _is_ a full screen mode. How does windowed full screen bother you?

sapphirus
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Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by sapphirus » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:06 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:From my testing (with Hivers), this micromanagement is actually detrimental, since it would seem that a colonization fleet won't give any actual support unless you let it return to a developped colony first (to "pick up supplies" I guess?)


When you test with Hiver were you looking at terra, infra or pop?

I just did a quick test with Liir, if I have a colonizer based on the colony system doing normal support, it adds extra infra, terra and pop (not sure if the pop increase is a result of the extra terra or directly from support). However if I use the exploit it adds extra terra, NO extra infra, REDUCE pop. (lol I hope they are not dumping citizen bodies into the earth as a form of local terraform supply...)

I use support mainly for terraforming, since all your colonization cost = life support cost = hazard rating, but if you use planet terraforming it's gonna cost biosphere damage whereas colonizer support terraform without damage and is fairly quick. So I would usually set the infra slider to 100% and let my colonizer do the terraforming.

BlueTemplar wrote:
4. No native full-screen. (To get proper "full-screen" you have to use the launcher option "Windowed fullscreen")

So there _is_ a full screen mode. How does windowed full screen bother you?


I just found that out after I made the initial post, I should probably cross that out, sorry about that.

There are 2 root causes to that point that made me annoyed, the first one is my fault that I didn't try the "Windowed fullscreen" option in the beginning because I thought it's a maximized window. I was playing with "Windowed" unchecked and with my desktop resolution (1920 x 1080) hard coded, it worked initially but if I ALT+TAB back I have to use ALT+ENTER to get back to full screen. (The option name "Windowed fullscreen" placed as a sub-option of "Windowed" is a bit confusing, isn't that just a "Fullscreen" anyway?)

The second aspect is that I was trying to close the chat window by pressing ESC (because I'm too lazy to make ONE click), then the game menu opened and forced me to make TWO clicks to close the menu + chat. So for any of you that uses the chat a lot I would suggest re-assign your menu key to something else so you can use ESC to close the chat window.

Both are trivial things once you know the solution.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Need proper rebase + other minor suggestions

Post by BlueTemplar » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:45 pm

All 3. I did a test because people were insisting on the chat that 100% terraforming was the fastest way to grow a colony, and I was saying that 100% infra should be the right thing to do in most situations, since infra is not limited by population (overharvest is), unlike in prime.
Turns out they were right, but only because there seems to be a hidden mechanic : colonizers giving on arrival in system extra infra _and_ terra (despite the fact that non-liir colonizers aren't supposed to add any), which seems to be based on your terra slider for some reason.
I noticed too colonizers removing population on specific occasions.

If I'm not mistaken, DirectX works differently depending on whether you're in full screen mode or windowed mode (even if the window covers the whole screen).

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