On Body Shaming...and shaming in general.

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Mecron
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Re: On Body Shaming...and shaming in general.

Post by Mecron » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:49 pm

This morning, while I was questioning why I react to the phrase "Men's Movement" in the same way I react to the phrase "Neo-Nazi" or anything organization with the words "American", "Family" or "Freedom" in the title it occurred to me that part of the reason why I laugh when its referred to as a "Movement" is because it doesn't stand for anything. All the men I have seen beating their chests, (and here I am talking about the most clever and lucid ones, not the usual GG posting frat boys) have nothing really to say about men. All they can go on about is what they don't like about modern women and feminism. Which is fine for them but its not really going to stand the test of time.

So the question is, while clearly the MM needs a messiah, what form will that person take? What issues will he raise that are actually about men, as opposed to what some men feel threatened by? And is it even possible for there to be a valid movement while the horde of whining, toxic frat boys cruise the internet, ever watchful for anything that will "ruin their childhoods"?

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Re: On Body Shaming...and shaming in general.

Post by Dan87 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:54 am

This morning, while I was questioning why I react to "men haters" in the same way I react to the phrase "Neo-Nazi/Leftist" or any organization with the words "Diverse", "Minorities" or "Feminism" in the title, it occurred to me that part of the reason why I laugh and throw up my hands in horror when their comments are referred to as a "legit piece of opinion" is because it doesn't stand for anything. All the (insert meaningless identity category) I have seen beating/squeezing their chests/breast, (and here I am talking about the most clever and lucid ones, not the usual (insert toxic drogative phrase)) have nothing really to say about anything. All they can go on about is what they don't like about men, masculinity or a healthy coexistence of men and women and how they can destroy everything decent. Which is fine for them but its not really going to stand the test of time or help anyone.

So the question is, while clearly the men haters need a messiah who leads them out of their sorrowful state of mind, what form will that person take? What issues will he/she raise that are actually of importance, as opposed to what some of them feel threatened by? And is it even possible for them to become decent human beings, while the horde of whining and toxic zealots cruise the internet and the streets, ever watchful for anything that attempts to take away "their hate for others but most importantly for themselfs"?


"They", the very vocal but miniscule fraction of zealots, talk about

...made up diversity, but neglect the beauty of actual existing natural biological diversity between every human and the sexes!
...equality, but they look for supremancy!
...unity, but what they want is consent throu violence, authoritarian oppression and censorship of mind and word!
...expanding rights to "others", but restrict them for everyone else!

This is a gynocentric world, obvious to everyone that sees it with eyes wide open without idiological lenses.
It was gynocentric long before humans walked the earth and will still be, long after humans are gone, provided we don't destroy the world.
Males of every species on this planet have always been the disposable sex and males live with it, because that is the way it is.

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That being said, I'd like to add a little anecdote to the body shaming topic as well.

I don't know exactly how the dressing rooms or showers looked like in those older elementary schools, but can I assume you are talking about a shared version, yes?!

Well, I can tell you how the communist/socialist version was. We had shared dressing rooms and showers, either in school sport, in public indoor pools or public gyms. We also had and luckily still have public indoor pools with unisex dressing rooms as it is considered more family friendly and I am in total agreement. We had and luckily still have lots of mixed saunas and plenty of nudist beaches.

So why do I bring this up? Well, first there is nothing, absolutely nothing dehumanising about shared dressing rooms or showers unless you think a human is only a human when he is seperated from others and wears clothes. It is actually quite the opposite, it is re-humansing. You are forced to make yourself aware that humans come in all kind of different shapes and forms. It teaches you the decency to not point the finger at someone because the next time it might be you who is on the receiving end. To strip down to your underwear in front of others also helps you to get rid of your shame and develop a good relationship with your body. It helps you to accept you the way you are and give a damn about what others have to say about your body.

A friend of mine and his family had a spot on a campingsite. We often took our bikes and drove out there to swim in the lake, surf or just relax. One day his family was also there and I met them for the first time. They were all naked! My friends family, all naked.
There was a brief moment of irritation, because I wasn't aware that it was allowed, but eventually after a few hours where I was still running around in my trunks I realized for myself that me in trunks was the awkward, dishonest elephant in the room, so off they went. My friend, his family and I spent a lot of sommers there after that day, together with all the other campers. Some nude some with clothes, didn't really matter because there was mutal respect for each other.

Also, up to the present the present day I feel more comfortable in mixed saunas than in segrated ones due to the balancing factor that makes everybody stop talking shit and behave.

Point is, I grew up in a society that did not taboo but celebrated the naked human body as something not awkward but natural, something not to be ashamed of. I was lucky enough that my family and almost everyone around me wasn't prudish and that I was exposed to naked people of all shapes and forms and ages from an early age on so that I had the chance to consider it normal.

The one thing, and this just my humble oppinion, that prevents others from living free of shame, is the tabooing of nudity in a society. The fact that it is treated as something secretive, mysterious, sinful, taboo or awkward plays largely into that. I see it with big concerns that the generations after mine do actually buy into that sort of tabooing.

If you haven't tried it yet, go to a nudist beach and strip naked. There is literally nothing more liberating than this one litle action of stripping naked infront of hundreds of other people. Standing there totally exposed, fragile with all your false and unfounded assumption, insecurities and anxieties (that I assume many have) and then....nothing...nobody is laughing at you, nobody is pointing fingers...nothing...everyone is minding their own buisness, enjoying themselfs and nature and you have become one of them.

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Re: On Body Shaming...and shaming in general.

Post by ZedF » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:43 am

I would agree that nudity taboos are probably doing more harm than good, especially as regards to body shaming.

However, Mecron's post above is actually touching upon the topic of how one performs a gender role within a society, which is a much broader and messier topic. It wasn't clear to me at first whether your reply was meant to be in response to him or an attempt to get back on topic. It seems to me that body shaming is only one facet of the larger topic of gender performance.

Feminism is ultimately a dialogue about how and why female gender roles, and the performance thereof, change and evolve in society. It's been an increasingly public dialogue for a long time, and a necessary one. But the evolution of male gender roles and the performance thereof gets much less attention, as well as much less public attention, and what discussion there has been seems like it has been largely reactionary in response to changing female gender role performance. This is a problem, because in the absence of a strong public discussion on the evolution of male gender performance, it is most natural to fall back on the status quo ante, which only brings more gender friction given feminism's advances, and more harm to young boys damaged by bullying, acclimatization to expectations of emotional repression, and confusion or even guilt about what it means to be male.

There needs to be a men's movement analogous to feminism, and those are the subjects its needs to tackle. But the subject is so broad, and reaction to the gradual erosion of male privilege so distracting, that it has had trouble finding a true public voice.
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Re: On Body Shaming...and shaming in general.

Post by Mecron » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:06 am

Exactly zed, and my point about what form should a spokesman take was an intro to discussing what real issues should be on the table, etc etc.


(also dan I know you think you are awesome clever and subtle but you are not. If you want to contribute please use your vast intellect towards making concise on topic points.)

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Re: On Body Shaming...and shaming in general.

Post by Erinys » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:20 pm

"Gynocentric world"? Lol...someone's been playing Hivers too long.

Returning to topic? I would love to see progress made toward a positive men's movement (as opposed to radicalizing men to defend white supremacy or male supremacy, which is far more common nowadays).

Legitimate issues to be addressed by advocates for male rights, and a reduction of harm to men in our society:

1. Dramatic increases of awareness in the rates of child abuse toward male children, sexual physical and emotional. Dramatic increase in awareness of maternal child abuse in particular, and far greater public resources spent on establishing a more functional mode of parenting and education.

2. Dramatic increase of focus on ending the school-to-prison pipeline which provides both Asian and North American industry with slave labor. The majority of victims of this system are male aged 12-60, and their numbers are far higher than the victims of human sex trafficking, which receives far more attention.

3. A sober and dynamic revision of our views and attitudes toward sexual assault when men and boys are the victims rather than the perpetrators. A complete end to the habit of dismissing sexual assault of underage boys as a joke or a "lucky break" when the perpetrator is female. A complete end to the notion that rape is an acceptable or deserved part of a prison sentence, if the victim is male.

More resources devoted to trauma counseling and support of male victims of sexual assault.

4. A long-needed revision of hostile attitudes toward male emotional and mental health needs. A long-needed revision of hostile attitudes toward male needs for touch, connection, and intimacy. A long-needed revision of unrealistic expectations of male children and adults in times of stress, grief, etc..

5. Universal decriminalization of sex work, which targets and stigmatizes men both as clients and providers. A revision of hostile and outdated ideas toward sex and sexuality, particularly male sexuality.

This is just stuff right off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other issues that impact men and boys primarily, including health nutrition and life expectancy, professions which are difficult to enter as a male, and issues related to safety standards in male dominated fields like soldiering and resource extraction.

But yeah. Every minute that men waste trying to restore the ancient patriarchal status quo, is another minute that they get to spend in a world where little boys are being constantly beaten, bullied and raped, or forced to fight in wars, and where men are disproportionately the victims of both slavery and every form of violent death--especially suicide.

No offense, but it seems to me that there are better ways to spend one's energy than trying to force women back into the box.
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Re: On Body Shaming...and shaming in general.

Post by Mecron » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:24 pm

Very concisely put!

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