Pavlov's Democracy

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ZedF
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by ZedF » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:04 am

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zanzibar196
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by zanzibar196 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:34 pm

Omg... omg... OMG!!! Please tell me this is a fact, and not a joke article!
Image

Image

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Nspace
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by Nspace » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:44 pm

Sorry Zanz. The URL has "humor" in it and the Borowitz Report is well known for it's satire. :) But hang in there, every day Mueller has more and more data points for his investigation.
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by marshb » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:04 am

He he, it sounded good for a second though! :lol:
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by Defenestar » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:11 am

Unfortunately, this year has made it quite hard to tell what's satire and what's horrifying reality. White house press rep hiding in the bushes? President who waffles on the question of whether nazis are bad people and trying to intimidate witnesses over twitter? A party holding the presidency, house and senate and still repeatedly choking on its own bills?

It's like the setup for a joke. When the dust settles and the survivors are walking around in a daze, wondering how they're going to put the smouldering remains of the country back together, someone's going to jump out and shout "The Aristocrats!"

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Slashman
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by Slashman » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:29 am

Caught this as I was browsing and found it very insightful to help describe what is currently occurring in America and how the previous presidency of 8 years affected was actually viewed by Americans.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by screamingpalm » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:58 pm

Read through some of this thread- reminds me of some debates I have with the family (I am the black sheep progressive among liberals heh). There was no good choice this time around. I remember well, the horrible policies of Bill Clinton. Welfare and prison reforms for "super-predators", a federal budget surplus that drained actual dollars and High Powered Money (HPM) out of the economy so Wall Street could finance the Gap with bank credit (and if you are Hillary- make a killing off of speeches), along with repeal of Glass-Steagall causing the crash of '08 (which Dems blame Bush for). Clinton was my least favorite President in modern times, but liberals refuse to let go of the myths and legends of tax and spend/deficit hysteria and understand macro economic reality, and so the woes perpetuate. A huge problem. Meanwhile Bernie has to pander to this economic illiteracy, yet his chief economic advisor during the primary was Stephanie Kelton- a brilliant Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) economist, so there's no doubt he knows better than the "hard earned tax dollars" rhetoric left over from gold standard logic.

(I'm with Zanzibar :D)

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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by Slashman » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:24 pm

So you think that someone who is exchanging heated words with the leader of a burgeoning nuclear superpower and casually tipping the scales toward war is a worse choice than Hillary? A hand-holder and enabler for white supremacists is a worse choice than Hillary? Someone who has been systematically erasing scientific data about climate change from all government websites is worse than Hillary? Someone who has been writing executive orders to excuse bad treatment of workers by allowing those companies to get government contracts is worse than Hillary? Someone who puts a corporate shill at the head of the FCC with the agenda of removing, not only net neutrality, but all privacy rights for public citizens who use the internet is worse than Hillary?

I'm glad you have your priorities straight. Surely 4 potential years of not much progress versus 4 years of fucking up almost every facet of the government and shaming the USA in the eyes of the entire world perfectly balances every scale that its weighed upon. :roll:
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by screamingpalm » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:27 pm

Six one, half dozen the other. Hillary's stance on Syria would have net us the same result. Clinton's welfare and criminal reforms are just as bad as Trump's more direct approach of white supremacy. Clinton's stance on fracking and privatizing Mexico's energy- and opening the Gulf to offshore drilling, just as bad for the environment.

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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by fiendishrabbit » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:39 pm

screamingpalm wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:27 pm
Six one, half dozen the other. Hillary's stance on Syria would have net us the same result. Clinton's welfare and criminal reforms are just as bad as Trump's more direct approach of white supremacy. Clinton's stance on fracking and privatizing Mexico's energy- and opening the Gulf to offshore drilling, just as bad for the environment.
How about...no?
There is no "just as bad as Trump's", because he's pretty deliebrately the worst.
Clintons support for fracking was very conditional.
1. Environmental oversight.
2. It can be done safely with no methane or watercontamination
3. It's done with the support of the local community.

That's pretty different to "Lets dump toxic waste in the river because it's cheap! For us. Right now. And not anyone else. Or in the long run".
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screamingpalm
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by screamingpalm » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:44 pm

It's also different than supporting renewable energy. Fracking being only one aspect of the exports which I am talking about. With these LNG pipelines, as the others, the question is not "if" it will leak, but "when".

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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by Defenestar » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:09 pm

False equivalency like suggesting that HRC. whose track record suggests that we'd basically get a second helping of Obama (except with the skreeching dingbats losing their damn minds about the president being a woman rather than the president being darker skinned) would be just as bad as the openly kleptocratic imbecile currently letting Puerto Rico die while he rants at football players is complete bullshit.

That's like saying that the people who are mad about white supremacists are as bad as the white supremacists. False equivalency gives the advantage to the worst actors in play because they get to do whatever the hell they want and know that the blame will fall just as much on the people who have a little basic human decency. Or, if recent events are anything to go by, that the people protesting against white supremacists will get arrested for being nearby to some vandalism and the people trying to ram protesters with their fucking cars will get off with a warning.

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screamingpalm
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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by screamingpalm » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:18 am

I don't get where you claim "false equivalency" considering I literally referenced Clinton's "track record". What do you consider worse: childish and moronic tweets from Trump, or devastating welfare and crime bills that destroyed peoples' lives and were utterly racist? Bills that the Clintons continued to defend during the primary campaign. It's not that I have disdain for the Clintons because of conspiracies or unproven hearsay- my reasoning is based on policy.

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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by ZedF » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:08 am

Even if you want to restrict discussion to policy -- and not the US's reputation and standing on the world stage, or the credibility and strength of its democratic institutions, or division and inequality amongst its citizens -- Trump's policies are worse than Clinton's by a substantial margin. He's happy to gut the budgets of all kinds of programs that help and educate people and keep them safe, in favour of more military spending. He's happy to slash the EPA budget and regulations in order to allow all manner of industries to pollute more freely in the name of profit. And he's happy to blow up the deficit in order to enact a tax reform proposal that throws maybe a handful of dollars at the middle class but offers huge tax savings to the super rich. None of these are things Clinton would have done.

Still, ignoring and trivializing Trump's impact on non-policy topics would be a mistake. For a long time, the US's foreign policy goals have centred on trying to remain the only global superpower with the support of a large alliance of friendly nations, and on being attractive to well-educated and/or wealthy foreigners who want to live and/or do business in the US. The amount of long term damage the US is suffering to these objectives under the Trump administration is serious and possibly irreparable. Similarly, Trump's attacks on the norms of democracy may or may not succeed in the immediate term, but they certainly have had a corrosive effect on them which will persist after he's gone. Again, these are not problems the US would have had added to its plate under a Clinton administration.

You can suggest Clinton would have been a bad choice as President, and I won't argue to the contrary, but it seemed obvious at the time of the election, and even more obvious in retrospect, that Trump is clearly worse.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: Pavlov's Democracy

Post by Defenestar » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:21 pm

Claiming that HRC would be as bad as Trump is totally false equivalency. Everything questionable about Clinton is massively worse about Trump. You're concerned about racism? Leaving aside for the moment the question of whether or not you might just be concern trolling there, Trump is siding with white supremacists, using every excuse to throw out Mexicans, and is on his third attempt to ban Muslims.

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