North/South Korea Summit

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Slashman
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Slashman » Wed May 02, 2018 10:22 pm

Cpt. Awesome wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:06 pm
It's fine to vent spleens, but if we assume that the thread consensus of this being done in bad faith is correct, what would the actual angle be?

How does "McDonald's style investments" and giving up nuclear weapons help this military dictatorship?
You do know that they have gone back on agreements to disarm in the past right? If they can get sanctions eased and gain other favorable aspects from a deal, then give the middle finger and continue anyway with no real repercussions, that may be all he's after. For all of Trump's blustering, no one actually wants to invade NK. Nukes or not it would be a gargantuan mess with astronomical civilian casualties for South Korea.

Plus both Putin and China's government are in his corner. We don't really know what's going on behind the scenes.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Mecron
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Mecron » Thu May 03, 2018 12:37 am

Awesome, always start at the beginning. What is North Korea's stated, single, ultimate goal?

Torezu
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Torezu » Thu May 03, 2018 12:13 pm

Mecron wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 12:37 am
What is North Korea's stated, single, ultimate goal?
"What do you want to do tonight, Brain?"

I realize unification of the Korean peninsula is NK's stated goal, but that's just a good first step in the mind of Kim Jong Un, I would imagine.

And yes, he's quite mad. There's no question of that.

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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by DemoMonkey » Thu May 03, 2018 4:45 pm

What is North Korea's stated, single, ultimate goal?

To detonate WMDs around the world and destroy the human race, thus leaving it open to invasion by the Zypods.

Duh.

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Mecron
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Mecron » Thu May 03, 2018 7:11 pm

Nope I think thats his entire plan. Unite Korea. His iron fist but powered by 21'st century money and tech. That's his endgame. Also try to imagine what he will do to the people of SK while he gently reeducates them 5 years after reunification.

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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by marshb » Thu May 03, 2018 9:36 pm

Is it just me or is South Korea the wild card in this whole thing? They seem really keen on reunification.
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Cpt. Awesome
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Cpt. Awesome » Thu May 03, 2018 9:36 pm

Mecron wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:11 pm
Nope I think thats his entire plan. Unite Korea. His iron fist but powered by 21'st century money and tech. That's his endgame. Also try to imagine what he will do to the people of SK while he gently reeducates them 5 years after reunification.

In your scenario, why would the South Koreans go along with it all?
marshb wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:36 pm
Is it just me or is South Korea the wild card in this whole thing? They seem really keen on reunification.
How is South Korea a Wild card exactly? They are one of the major players in all of this. NK giving up their nukes and no longer pointing all their artillery at them seems to be a fairly self-evident reason to be keen on de-escalation.

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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by marshb » Thu May 03, 2018 10:37 pm

I dunno. Maybe because in one country the population may as well not exist. That everything depends on one singular quantity ie a megalomaniac that you can count on behaving a certain way and is somewhat predictable (maybe?).

In the other country where mass movements are allowed things can get a little crazy. I know, I know, I'm projecting. Just because we elected a tin pot doesn't mean the South Koreans will throw out the baby with the bathwater. But still, shit happens and it's just as important we keep an eye on the free people as it is the dictator.

I just have trust issues with my fellow man making informed decisions of late.
Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.

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Slashman
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Slashman » Thu May 03, 2018 11:55 pm

marshb wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 10:37 pm
I just have trust issues with my fellow man making informed decisions of late.
Just of late? Humans are notoriously untrustworthy...
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Mecron
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Mecron » Fri May 04, 2018 2:10 am

Awesome...are you paying attention to south korea at all? They have now an entire generation born AFTER the war that understands only that the current situation puts them in danger for something that their parents did and that lots of people in NK are sad cause their family members are in SK. And their are a LOT of SK politicians willing to take advantage of that naivete cause they see the north as a huge supply of cheap labor.

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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by marshb » Fri May 04, 2018 10:25 am

Slashman wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:55 pm
marshb wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 10:37 pm
I just have trust issues with my fellow man making informed decisions of late.
Just of late? Humans are notoriously untrustworthy...
Lol yeah, my naivete, despite my best efforts still pops up. I'm a sucker! :P
Mecron wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:10 am
Awesome...are you paying attention to south korea at all? They have now an entire generation born AFTER the war that understands only that the current situation puts them in danger for something that their parents did and that lots of people in NK are sad cause their family members are in SK. And their are a LOT of SK politicians willing to take advantage of that naivete cause they see the north as a huge supply of cheap labor.
Didn't something similar happen after German reunification? I know it wasn't smooth and a lot of resentments built-up in both the east and west peoples. Also I know were not talking reunification right away, I can't see it happening for decades, maybe.

Ps: I enjoyed last night's playthrough of Mountains of Madness ( I asked about the Penguins and durnit if they didn't include the rascals! :lol: ). My only complaint, and it's my fault in choice of habitation, but the four hour time lag knocked me out right at the very end. Did u make it to the summit?
Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.

Orison of Sonmi-451

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Mecron
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Mecron » Fri May 04, 2018 5:03 pm

Yep we made it out both times but both times we incured too many injuries and lost our tenure over a "disastrous" expedition :?

And yes the situation is similar to german reunification if east germany had still been run by Hitler.

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Ludovsky
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Re: North/South Korea Summit

Post by Ludovsky » Sat May 05, 2018 9:44 am

I doubt reunification would happen soon.

A friend of mine went into political sciences and studied North Korea a bit and... by their own viewpoint a lot of the fears about North Korea's regime are a bit overblown.

I mean, they ARE sociopathic monsters who'd happily sacrifice their own population for their goal.
But their goal is not really the reunification as a friend who's been studying the situation(and has more political science experience/studies than myself to judge) has often been noting.
It's just to ensure that Kim can leave the throne to whichever successor he chose in the way his dad got the throne from his own dad before him... who also got the throne from his own dad before him. If anything, reunification actually put the hassle of actually challenging who'd get the throne once the matter of "who gets to rule an unified Korean?" gets asked.

So if anything their goal is mostly to keep reunification not as a goal, but as a "promise". Since a promise can keep being used to motivate people(and thus not challenge the regime)... as long as it's not actually fulfilled.

Lately a big game changer has likely been, I hate to say it, Trump.
Though I say game-changer not as a compliment to Trump....and quite the opposite in fact.

A lot of NK's game with the reunification promise has generally been through saber-rattling and posturing meant to threaten conflict(of which there is very high risks of lot of damage to South Korean considering SK's capital is actually within the range of northern conventional artillery of all things)... but never actually act up upon it since they know it's a conflict that is for the North to lose should the USA gets involved/etc. Especially with a China that is increasingly more annoyed at the "burden" the bothersome North Korean family friend is proving to be and thus had become less of an assured defender in the game of conflict(If I recall some people even feel that, beyond "avoiding civil war from polution-tired population", the Chinese push for solar power is in part to cut themselves from the need for North Korean coal).

The problem with that strategy that worked so well under past presidents is that... well. To put it bluntly, Trump is perceived as "too dumb" to recognizes it as mere saber-rattling and thus would likely start the "Idiot Nuclear War" for simply mistaking a NK boast as a direct provocation to himself.
In fact, I recall reports of North Korean diplomats using various channels to try to asks if Trump was truly "serious" about all his threats because they literally couldn't understand whether his tweet/boasts were serious threats or just faux-erratic boasts/bravado like they are used to perform themselves and thus couldn't figure if he was just posturing or truly threatening nuclear war over perceived personal insults.

It's probably not a surprise that it's actually the South's government who pushed the most for these talks because they likely recognized how "unreliable" the american "ally" has been.... and how disastrous how an american intervention in "defence" of South Korea would prove to South Korea itself(re: all that artillery that has Seoul in direct sight, and ready to fire at the very start of a conflict).

And the North itself is realizing that it's hard for "Great Leader" to pass on his throne to his next successor in the family if the throne has been reduced to radioactive rubble. So the "angle" is likely just mere survival, and a couple of favor both nations would give each others: The north stopping it's sabre-rattling so "Idiot Nuclear War" doesn't happen and thus don't cause the ruin of both Koreas. The south likely sending foodstuff/etc in exchange while the north provide more of it's population as cheap labor(which in turn would keep this population "occupied"). And the whole thing just give another angle for North Korean internal propaganda to spin as the "Great Wisdom of Great Leader"/etc and proof of "yet another step toward the ineluctable reunification of Korea"... without, again, noting how long said reunification would t
After all, even with a formal peace treaty there is no mention of how much time all the "niggle and fiddly details of reunification" would take. In many ways, for North Korean propaganda actually reunification is less important than the actual promise that "someday" it will happen.

And a peace treaty, even without reunification(or even will toward such) is just another thing they can spin as a sign of "progress" toward the promise of reunification even without any plans to reunite in coming decades... let alone the coming century. That population *thinks* reunification will happen someday is more important than actually planning the reunification of Korea.

Which is what I think is likely the "angle" here. Just a different spin on the "how" the promised reunification would happen... without really bothering about truly working toward it beyond purely symbolic ways for propaganda to use to keep population motivated/not challenging the regime. Meanwhile the USA would likely be buttered up from the realization that a narcissist like Trump is better dealt with flattering his ego rather the provocations his ego would take as personal insults.

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