Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

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Ludovsky
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Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:08 am

As title says.

I'll admit, I'm legit worried. Trans friends in the province are scared like hell.

For one, the guy apparently said during leadership debates for the conservative party that he would consider re-legalizing "reparative therapy"(literally: pray the gay away and that kind of crap which'd been made illegal in the first place because it led to suicides and depression). Funding for GRS(Gender Reassignement Surgery) is most certainly in the target of his chopping block if he goes that far too.

And this bit about education is particularly worrying:
"On education: Ford’s plan promises to roll back the province’s updated sex-ed curriculum, “until we can install a new one that is age appropriate and based on real consultation with parents.” Also on the PCs’ watch: cell phones in all primary and secondary school classrooms will be banned, there will be a “fix” of the province’s standardized-testing regime and universities will be required to “uphold free speech on campuses and in classrooms."

Considering the steaming piles we've already had to deal from Peterson, that "uphold free speech on campuses and in classrom" details is not reassuring in the slightest considering their vision of "free speech" generally means "Talking about the removal of the rights of all minorities we don't like as if it was equal an opinion as discussing sports teams".
Which is where the bit about sex-ed curriculums don't reassure me. Without stating anything the only guess I can imagine is them attempting to do crap like removing any refferences to homosexuality that bigot parents don't want for fear of their kids "catching teh gays".

And because I know some of the conservatives here in Quebec, I'm in no way reassured by living in another province. They're still next doors, everybody is just gonna see the crap about "but look the lower taxes! Taxes were just way too high!" and completely ignore the stuff about minority rights or even try to handwavedly dismiss is as "Well we're not against their right but perhaps that was too much, especially if taxpayers had to pay for it?".

Like... thankfully I doubt we have anything as crass as Doug right now(Even the centre-right CAQ which actually has a paradox of a leader likely much more centrist than it's base to the point it's not been uncommon for them to call him a leftist trying to overwrite what their party is ever since he took over the ADQ and turned it into the CAQ) .

But while provincial still make me feel "some" safety even for the potential "worst"..... I do -heavily- worry about Federal elections since it was the core thin strip of a dozen counties in the Quebec heartland that managed to help the Conservatives first get to power in the first place years ago, by being "just" a dozen of counties switching from the liberal party to the conservatives in the wake of the referendum subsidies scancal("Scandale des commandites" in french). Just a dozen... but just enough to bring them over the threshold they needed to be elected.

And the "orange wave" that had taken the province in the past has definitely begun to wane while there is a LOT of audible growing discontentment above Justin Trudeau in the province(fanned in part by Peladeau's own Journal de Montreal/Quebec and it's fondness to continually picture him as a selfie-obsessed money wasting airhead to the point of obsession it feels sometimes).

With the split between progressive parties in Canada, and Trudeau abandoning the promises of electoral reform that could have brought us a proportional system that would have finally prevented the conservatives from getting majorities governments without the majority of the popular vote.... without the bulwark this would have provided, I am uniquely worried.

--------------------------

The sad irony is.... I half expect us to re-elect that conservative government only just moments before the united states finally kick off Trump. Like we did electing the Tories just because Bush ended his mandate and the GOP getting prevented from nabbing the presidency again thanks to Obama being elected.

Then after so many years of tory rule on our end, we finally kicked them off to elect the liberals... just the year before Trump got elected.

I can't help but to shake this fear of us still being stuck with a near-decade of conservative rule again even if south of our border the USA finally manage to kick out Trump during that time.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Mecron » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:52 am

Welcome to a very well planned cynical power grab by corporations creating their very own trump situation and ever so superior canadian's responding like pavlov's fucking dog.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Slashman » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:59 pm

I'm not very in touch with Canadian politics, but are you guys experiencing a wave of Trumpism across the board right now?
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by ZedF » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:35 pm

Sort of. A lot of the more wacky conservatives have come out of the woodwork in hopes of emulating him. However, while there are some of the same sort of anti-progressive folks around in Canada to encourage such an attempt, it’s not clear to me that a Trump-like figure could gain the same level of support nationally as has happened in the US. Canada as a whole is significantly more progressive than the US as a whole on culture issues like immigration, racism, and so forth — though not as much so as some other European countries.

Part of the problem in Ontario was that the Liberal government under Wynne made themselves vulnerable by implementing certain unpopular policies, especially regarding electricity pricing. The price of power in Ontario is much higher than other provinces. This predictably led to a backlash. Probably a lot of voters picked Conservative without too much thought — it’s the traditional alternative to the Liberals and NDP is often considered with some skepticism as an alternative as they rarely get enough votes to gain power.

I voted NDP as I did not want a scam artist as the leader of our provincial government, but unfortunately my candidate did not quite manage to carry my riding, and that result seems to have been reflected across the province.
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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:43 pm

I dunno if the provincial CAQ in Quebec could be comparable to Trumpism(though many CAQ *supporters* would like for it to be closer to that... at least I guess Legault's neutered a fair segment of that though I'm no fan of the party and will still steer clear from it. I'd be more worried if it'd been someone like Eric Caire or such getting the leadership of that party if I recall well their name. Legault meanwhile came from the PQ and is still associated more closely with the left-wing economic policies of that party rather than the nationalist ideology stuff of it. Quebec's a mixed bag in that regard, really :/ ).

But I can say there is a clear bunch of Canadians who want a "Canadian Trump" to be the "glorious New Leader" to kick Trudeau's place from power :/

It was crazy to the point of the last Conservatives leadership campaign at the federal level was literally all about would-be Trump imitators facing the more still-callous-but-more-subtle-about-it factions trying to prevent a Trump figure from taking hold of the party. I don't know enough about Andrew Scheer to know where he fits in that spectrum at the federal level.... but at least at *a* provincial level the election of Doug Ford is a clear sign at least one of the provincial conservative parties got their own Trump figure. Complete with the scandals considering how things went with his brother Rob and that drug affair.


And they gave that party a majority rule despite having only 40% of the vote, thanks to the way our election works and the split in parties(more people voted against the conservatives than for them.... but the people making that vote were split between a 33% vote for NDP and 19% vote for the departing Liberal party. And I'm so tired that our country's lack of a proportional representation system keeps giving the entirety of the power to a party whom the majority of the population voted against instead of the minority governments they should represents at "best".

.... I might be a bit bitter about Trudeau abandonning those plans of electoral reforms promises as soon as he himself got a majority with similar vote percentage and I'm tired of it and just wishes the NDP would finally get federally elected because never having a ruling voice in Federal at least they'd be more likely to move forward with that promise. But in the current atmosphere I don't even know what their chances are because the liberals might just end up trying to undermine them more by focusing on the NDP more than a resurgent conservative party.

It does make one worry about a domino effect now that Ontario's conservatives have had their Trump-lite charicature with too short a notice before other provinces' or federal election to show the Bad Idea that this is. I'm legit worried.

Like part of me is the fear of this possibility of seeing the USA finally kicking Trump and the GOP out as they deserve... only for segment of our population, not paying attention to what's happening south of the border because they're still so enamored by the thought of a Canadian Trump that would beat Trudeau.... that we'd end up electing Trump's Canadian Imitators the moment just before the real deal gets kicked out of the White House.

Thus taking us to an ever worst parody of the Harper year where we had a very much Obama-adverse Harper rule for most of the entirety of Obama's rules because Harper got elected when Bush was still in power and conservatives were literally applauding the "restoration" of Canadian relations with america because of the previous Bush/Chretien schism. But of course to their dismay, they completely hadn't paid the slightest attention to how sick the USA were getting of Bush and instead of having a friendly GOP institution, they found their Harper-led Canada faced with a much less concilliant(for good reasons) Obama.

So even if Trump gets kicked out in the USA, I'm legit starting to fear a take Two of this situation where to boot we'd get a literal Trump-grade parody in power compared to Harper who was at least cunning(much I dislike to "compliment" him such) to keep his more rabbid supporters on a tight leash in public.

So like the Harper years, but double the embarassment to boot ontop of all the other crap we can expect.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by DemoMonkey » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:59 pm

I'm actually happy with the election results.

All elections are, in the end, about self interest (with "self" being defined in this situation as "you and the people you care about".)

To some of us, that's about the bottom line. I expect more money in my pocket at the end of every year as a result of a Conservative government, which I can spend on my "self", so I'm all for it.

You may commence the derision at your convenience.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:24 pm

You tell that to the people who'll wonder if they'll ever be able to get the gender reassignement surgery(let alone earliest transition support) they need when that's basically flat out the stuff Ford has targeted most heavily in some leadership campaigns.

I mean, for fuck sake, the guy talked about re-legalizing "Reparative Therapy" for the sake of these parents who refuses to admit their kids might be gay and thus prefer to send them to "pray the gay/trans away" camps more than accept their own kids as who they are. Not caring about the psychological abuses that might end up happening there as HAD happened before.

Even Harper, much I didn't like him especially toward the end, knew to tighten the leash on those supporters who'd start blabbing about making gay marriage illegal again because at least he was able to see this was something that was to remain untouched much he didn't like it himself. The guy talking about "reparative therapy"(read: "straight conversion therapy") gives me no such faint hope unless courts or massive popular opposition themselves step in.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by DemoMonkey » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:50 pm

"the guy talked about re-legalizing "Reparative Therapy"

Citation please? I'd like to see what the remarks are and the context they were made in before commenting.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:34 pm

https://north99.org/2018/04/11/doug-sta ... candidate/

"Ford has taken a similar position as Granic Allen on many hot-button social issues. As summarized by PressProgress, these positions include:
Repealing Ontario’s sex-ed curriculum
Allowing his backbenchers to table legislation on restricting access to abortion
Opposing a law that makes it illegal to harass women at abortion centres
Giving parents the power to stop a teen’s abortion
Giving religious doctors the freedom to refuse to refer patients who request an abortion"

-------------------

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/d ... r-promises
"On education: Ford’s plan promises to roll back the province’s updated sex-ed curriculum, “until we can install a new one that is age appropriate and based on real consultation with parents.”** Also on the PCs’ watch: cell phones in all primary and secondary school classrooms will be banned, there will be a “fix” of the province’s standardized-testing regime and universities will be required to “uphold free speech on campuses and in classrooms.”


**In most conservatives circles I've encountered, and living in Quebec's own conservative heartland I met a lot, this frequently meant "Don't teach our kids about homosexuality and crap like that" from the most hardcore who seem to be behind Ford, especially considering that "lowering the price of booze" promise from the same article which is the very kind of stuff these people would just literally lap up.


--------------


Reparative therapy is harder to find but seem to be tied into a past leadership candidate whom he only distanced himself from when her bigotry was clearly starting to harm the party's popularity.

But still posed next to her in photos/etc until that very point despite the fact those views were likely well known before then.... and probably espoused by not small enough group to remain irrelevant. Especially as even a small group can be vocal enough to be paid attention to above even more moderate people.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by ZedF » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:36 pm

DemoMonkey wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:59 pm
I expect more money in my pocket at the end of every year as a result of a Conservative government, which I can spend on my "self", so I'm all for it.
The problem with this statement is that Ford’s promises of a chicken in every pot, without a way of paying for said chicken, are not credible. Someone is going to foot the bill for the extra money you expect to find in your pocket. Which Paul will be robbed in order to pay Peter?

Since this is a Conservative government, odds are it won’t be the rich footing the bill. It will be the middle class and the poor. So you may find the money you got given in one pocket came originally from your other pocket, with a little extra taken off to line those of Ford and his friends.
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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:42 pm

https://globalnews.ca/news/4245631/doug ... conomists/

"said his projections are an attempt to illustrate the lack of information from the Tories, who have not released a fully costed campaign platform despite months of promises from Ford to do so before voters head to the polls June 7."

As pointed here, no matter the fact all parties that would have been elected may have led to a deficit.... no matter the source doing the pointing there is something to be said of the Conservatives not even having any -plan- clearly charting how they would uphold their promises.

So the province -may- indeed end up with an even *larger* deficit than even the two other options, and that'd still come out of your pocket anyway.

Also, with experience of Quebec politics, a lack of a plan spells one other big thing for me: It generally is an indication of a party who had absolutely no expectation of actually winning, let alone winning a majority, and was full-on fully expected they'd thus instead get the cushy job of constantly criticizing the other people that would have instead got in without ever having to justify if what they'd suggest would -truly- work because that's the responsibility of a party in power, not one in the opposition.


But Doug's tories got full majority power, and not a cushy opposition job where they could indeed have spent their time never doing anything to make sure there was any logic or foundation of feasability behind their claim and promise because they wouldn't be the one in power.

So yeah, the party of "fiscal responsibility", with it's utter lack of a plan, may end up being the biggest deficit digger of them all.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by DemoMonkey » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:49 pm

ZedF

I don't expect to have more money in my pocket than I do now. I expect to have more money in my pocket going forward than I would have under continuing Liberal or NDP governments. My apologies on not making myself clearer.

Ludovsky

First, thank you for the citations.

I think we are going to continue to disagree here; your objections seem to me to be less based on what he has said and done, and more on what you presume his words and statements are bellwethers of. You are assuming motivations and agendas behind his positions, that I do not.

I am curious about one of the less controversial issues you seem to feel strongly about though: why do you think banning cell phones in classrooms is bad?

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:36 pm

I'm neutral on the cell phone thing due to being uncertain. But living where I do and having been exposed to different strain of conversatism…
Let's just say there's a lot of "coded language" I'm very familiar with from conservatives, down right to some in my own family.

This is not a "what the media said", this is direct obvservations of very present movements within the conservative party itself, something I've seen echoed even outside Quebec from people in similar situations to mine who were exposed directly to conservative groups, relatives or populations of their own province:

"Repealing Ontario’s sex-ed curriculum" . The main argument he himself has raised if that it isn't "age appropriate". Generally it comes from a very controlling viewpoint that tend to assume in often underestimating ways what a children is actually ready for. More than that, it's often been tied into a lot of homophobia that tries to justify it's homophobia as not-homophobic-but-concerned with such comments as "But kids can't be ready to know what gender they're even attracted to or identify as, you'd just confuse them".
(everyone I know who is homosexual or trans knew there was -something- different about them no matter how long they tried to "fit the mold" imposed to them in the past and indeed just wishes *they* had the chance of understanding that homosexuality was perfectly normal.... let alone existed, to finally even just put a name to what they were feeling).


Even if the claim of age-appropriateness was to claim being about "other" stuff in public, I've seen how frequently the "but we can't get kids confused about their identity" argument so many times in private groups no matter how often it's been debunked and how often actual homosexual often wishes they'd had the experience to know why *they* felt confused about their identity and couldn't understand why they were unable to be "just like everybody else" in an environment that didn't even want to aknowledge who they really were at the time. I've heard about the decades of depression before some of them even finally understood they were trans or gay, sometimes late in their lives where previously they would just but in frustration at not figuring what was "wrong" because they never had the ressources at the time they needed them.


-----------------

"and universities will be required to “uphold free speech on campuses and in classrooms."

Again this is a coded word kind of thing because in every groups I've had to be exposed too, what I've seen was not "I want to have healthy debate about fiscal responsibility and politics". It drapes itself in the noble pretenses of free speech...
.... to instead of talking about normal debates on politics, fiscal responsibility and so on... the "free speech advocates" they bemoan being kicked out of campuses are actually the likes of Richard Spencer or Peterson. The kind of people who talk about the importance of "white nationalism"/"white separatism" or the "redistribution of sex/enforced monogamy" as if they were subject remotely equivalent to debating fiscality or the role of government.

But to the average voter and viewer, they will present it as if the "free speech" of "conservative values" was endangered.... without revealing which -lineage- of conservative values they're talking about.
So that one right there is often a dangerous one because it rarely ever is about free speech... but only the right to a platform for what might as well be propaganda to ideologies that are completly about *removing* anything close to free speech for anyone that isn't of their ideologies literally based on the rejection of others.

So just seeing that "promises" alone become extremely worrying because it will downgrade someone talking about their "experience as a LGBT person who tried to understand their selves for decade and want to provide others with the support they themselves lacked" on the same footing than "asshole who will reserve a campus auditorium to talk about the need of protecting a White Etchnostate, reject immigrants and immigrations and talk about how trans propaganda need to be eradicated to re-establish non-degenerate traditional gender roles again".
These are not subject of the same weight, and the later's very argumentation is literally steeped in a foundation of removing the former's own freedom of speech.
"Freedom of speech" shouldn't mean spouting borderline propaganda steeped in ideologies bathed in the will of removing minorities' own freedom. Because that's not freedom of speech but "freedom of propaganda" and that distinction really need to start being made.

So no, my point never had anything to do with the cell phones.

And like I said, I don't say this because "this is what the medias told me it is". I'm saying it from literally having observed first hand from people whom I've had to deal with in real life. And which "moderate" conservatives should wake up to what they're doing to their own party when they're not looking because they latched only on the talk of fiscal responsibility.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by DemoMonkey » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:58 pm

"coded language" is an interesting lens to view politics through. Thank you for explaining that viewpoint to me.

I don't necessarily agree with the premise; but then my first-hand experiences are different than yours.

Because that's not freedom of speech but "freedom of propaganda" and that distinction really need to start being made.

I can almost guarantee we both would - in good faith - classify a great number of things in different categories on that scale. That's what makes the management of the "Paradox of Tolerance" one of the trickiest problems in a free society.

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Re: Doug Ford wins elections in Ontario

Post by Mecron » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:28 pm

actually demo this...

"I expect more money in my pocket at the end of every year as a result of a Conservative government, which I can spend on my "self", so I'm all for it."

...eloquently makes a point about the major weakness of democracy and also why you are a pointless human being to discuss politics with. The rest of you should respect the effort Demo made and react accordingly.

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