Police Penalties non-existent

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Slashman
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Police Penalties non-existent

Post by Slashman » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:45 pm

This is what happens to police in the US when they do wrong and why.
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fiendishrabbit
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Re: Police Penalties non-existent

Post by fiendishrabbit » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:42 pm

Well. Duh.
1. The US average cop is less trained than their equivalents in wealthy nations.
2. Unlike most european countries there is no separate branch of police and prosecutors whose job it is to investigate police, prosecutors and judges. A police with its own independent budget that's decided by the parliament.
3. Cops using force is also so normalized that people don't even blink. There are cities in the US where police killed more people in a year than the police of france and germany combined.
4. Police officers do so without consequences. In cases where police shot and killed unarmed civilians 1% were ever convicted of wrongdoing.
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Slashman
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Re: Police Penalties non-existent

Post by Slashman » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:22 pm

1. I think they are pretty well trained to respond with maximum violence.

2. That is a major problem. But they have laws within laws to protect them from prosecution. The one where you can't convict a cop without having a conviction in a similar case is facepalm material. The cop shot a kid while attempting to shoot his dog but there was no precedence for that ever happening before so the cop walks!

3. I think people blink...a lot. But again with the law protecting them there is no recourse. You remember the case of Terence Crutcher. The dude had no gun, was asking for help with his car and the police shot him dead. That officer is back on duty with nothing on her record to show for her horrible judgement and action. Because he was a "big bad dude" it couldn't be helped.

4. Yes and that is by design.

It is friggin crazy...
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Mecron
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Re: Police Penalties non-existent

Post by Mecron » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:00 am

Everything went wrong when the police unions in the states shifted things to the dictum that the cop's life mattered more than anyone else's in a situation. Sadly that is the equivalent to making it clear firemen should not go into burning buildings cause they are more important than anyone trapped inside.

Being a cop is a shitty job, but when it becomes "when in doubt, shoot to kill", they are no longer serving and protecting. While I am usually a big defender of unions, various Police unions have lost their way. That and the republicans hot to sell military hardware to police forces to make money for their defense contractor contributors.

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fiendishrabbit
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Re: Police Penalties non-existent

Post by fiendishrabbit » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:24 am

Mecron wrote: ↑
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:00 am
Everything went wrong when the police unions in the states shifted things to the dictum that the cop's life mattered more than anyone else's in a situation. Sadly that is the equivalent to making it clear firemen should not go into burning buildings cause they are more important than anyone trapped inside.

Being a cop is a shitty job, but when it becomes "when in doubt, shoot to kill", they are no longer serving and protecting. While I am usually a big defender of unions, various Police unions have lost their way. That and the republicans hot to sell military hardware to police forces to make money for their defense contractor contributors.
I don't really want to derail the thread, but your fireman analogy makes me pretty uncomfortable. I worked as a volunteer fireman when I was young, and the mantra was definitely that your own life was more important than anyone inside a building (ie, you only go into a building if you're sure that you're safe. And you can be safe due to your own training, the training of the team leader and the equipment you use). Fire departments absolutely hate "heroes" (and will fire them if possible) because of the risk they put the team in. As a fireman you're a part of a team. The priority of an operation is "Stay Safe", "Rescue People", "Save property". In that very strict order.

However, very strict building codes, good gear, good training and the amount of research put into making firefighting efficient and safe means that if it's not safe for us to go in, then there generally nobody in there that's still alive. However, the time it takes to rig up a hose (the only thing we couldn't do when on route) probably means that maybe someone died because we followed procedure (you don't go into a burning building without a hose, ever. Even if there are people screaming in there).
Industrial accidents tend to be the exception, and I suppose that during those we did take risks ("hey, that's acytelene container isn't that scorched, so we probably have a few more minutes before the internal reaction and pressure building means that it goes boom").
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Mecron
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Re: Police Penalties non-existent

Post by Mecron » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:41 am

:roll: Yeah sorry I forgot....FIREMEN NEVER GET HURT OR DIE because they only go into SAFE burning buildings. Way to miss the point AND flex.


No one said any bloody thing about being reckless. Some of us were trained to fight forest fires and safety first was the message of the day as well. On the other hand its NEVER completely "Safe" to get between a small town and a forest fire.

The point being is that being a Cop, no matter how safe you try to make it, is intrinsically risky. And the minute you start trying to optimize safety by shooting the innocent civilians you are supposed to be protecting. YOU MAY HAVE MISSED THE BLOODY POINT.

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fiendishrabbit
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Re: Police Penalties non-existent

Post by fiendishrabbit » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:09 am

Mecron wrote: ↑
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:41 am
:roll: Yeah sorry I forgot....FIREMEN NEVER GET HURT OR DIE because they only go into SAFE burning buildings. Way to miss the point AND flex.


No one said any bloody thing about being reckless. Some of us were trained to fight forest fires and safety first was the message of the day as well. On the other hand its NEVER completely "Safe" to get between a small town and a forest fire.

The point being is that being a Cop, no matter how safe you try to make it, is intrinsically risky. And the minute you start trying to optimize safety by shooting the innocent civilians you are supposed to be protecting. YOU MAY HAVE MISSED THE BLOODY POINT.
I'd honestly compare it to british vs US style peacekeeping, or at least how it was back in 2000.

US troops try to subjugate the population by intimidation. They're never seen without helmets, they're always pointing guns and tearing up peoples luggage at roadblocks. And at the same time they take stupid risks in other ways. They never try to deescalate by making confrontation impossible, or by giving themselves the best safety margins before they need to resort to lethal force. Instead it's always "We solve this through firepower!" Safety is established through the ability to cow and kill the enemy. Priority is put on killing enemies above sparing civilians.

British troops on the other hand occupy as politely as they can. Once the situation is semi-calm troops wear berets, because a person with a beret is less threatening than one with a helmet and it's hard to dehumanize someone with a human face...and it's hard to shoot someone you can't dehumanize. They try to be polite when confronting people at roadblocks, and if they can help it they never ever touch people or their stuff against their will. They try to deescalate the risk of conflict at roadblocks by serious amounts of sweat, making it impossible to approach the roadblock at speed through s-curves, sandbags and barriers, thus buying themselves the time to not open fire unless absolutely necessary. It's only once the enemy opens fire that violence is unleashed. The key is not "killing the enemy", it's preventing them from recruiting more. That's risky. It's very risky for the first guys, because they're the guys that will take increased casualties. However, it's not about your safety. It's about everyones safety in the long run.

P.S: Because lets face it. The risks that american police officers face of people being prone to use violence against the police? That's a situation THEY created. Maybe not in the first place (because the US was a violent place before police were a thing), but while nations like germany has built up a trust capital in their police and their justice system, the US is a nation of criminals with nothing to lose and cops who are easy to hate.
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Mecron
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Re: Police Penalties non-existent

Post by Mecron » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:00 pm

I totally agree. The "Sturm und Drang" school of dealing with civilians was terrible for the US military and they passed on a bad idea to the police force. 5 men yelling at the top of their lungs and threatening to kill you does not deescalate anything and there are plenty of shoulder and phone cam videos where you can see officers CLEARLY escalating a situation all by themselves when the soon to be victim is pretty much subdued.

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