What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

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BlueTemplar
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What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:57 pm

Looking at the starting designs, I don't see why you would want to use ER's instead of Armors when playing as Hivers.

Their differences are that ER gets 4 small turrets, while Armor gets 4 mediums and 2 smalls. ER has 20 less structure and is slightly cheaper. When both are loaded with Camels, ER's get 1 more endurance (which is a pretty small difference already, since you're going to have 8+T)... unless if you use ballistic/missile weapons and change those 4 extra mediums to energy weapons, in which case Armor gets the same endurance!

There are a few tiny advantages to ER's, for instance those 2 extra small could eventually serve if you desperately need more PD, or their slightly lower credit and construction costs, or that it's easier to blow the Camel modules from the Armor than to blow the ER section, but compared to the extra guns on the Armor, the choice is quickly made.

Maybe that changes with higher tech levels?

So, has anyone ever found a use/design/situation where the ER would be better than the Armor?

ZedF
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by ZedF » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:20 pm

I have not tried with Hiver, but I do use ERs as other races.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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TheSwarmLord
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by TheSwarmLord » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:05 pm

I see no reason to use extended range on Hivers since they need less overall supply because of gates. Also if you really needed extra range you could use Long Range Fusion or Ram Scoop.(I never use either). Maybe if you wanted to pump out a ton of cheap ships.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:24 pm

Huh, hivers need A LOT MORE supply than other races because of how slow they are to reach ungated planets!

What I said before considers the use (or not) of Long Range Fusion. RamScoops seem more like they are useful for non-combat ships, because if you are going to dilute the firepower of your combat ships using them, why not just bring a dedicated supply instead?
Besides, it looks like that everything I wrote in the first post still stands when replacing Hammerheads by Ramscoops.

Extended ranges are only about 10% cheaper than Armors.

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Aranador
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Aranador » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:14 pm

I have pretty much found that with any race, an ER hull is a worse choice than an AR hull with 2 x camels, if you actually need that range. The ER hull is slightly cheaper though.

But with SotS2 now always requiring a command ship as part of your fleet, there just isnt any point to building an ER to 'fire and forget' at the other half of the universe. Even in SotS1 there wasnt much point, as a supply ship was better at that job. In 2 though - the command ship will never be an ER command ship, so the fleet will never be an ER fleet, just a fleet with extra supply from supply ships and camel modules.

Now - if the ER hull actually WAS a command ship, albiet with a CP limit of 6 - bingo, new fire and forget scout class right there baby.

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by ZedF » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:36 pm

Aranador wrote:I have pretty much found that with any race, an ER hull is a worse choice than an AR hull with 2 x camels, if you actually need that range. The ER hull is slightly cheaper though.

See, I can't agree that it is necessarily worse. This is situationally dependent on the ER and armour in question.

With Solforce, using starting technology, I can make a supply ship with up to 11 endurance, an ER with up to 10 endurance, and an armour can get at most 8 endurance. Of those, if my goal is to increase the total endurance of a fleet, I generally prefer the ER. The first reason is that (unlike the supply ship) the ER is tough enough and fast enough to be able to contribute to overall fleet firepower and durability without slowing the fleet down. The second reason is that it fits best with the way fleet endurance appears to be calculated (see this post for a sample.) A fleet of eight 1-endurance ships and an 8-endurance armour will still have endurance 1, but with a 10-endurance ER it will have a total endurance of 2. All I have to do to get another point of endurance in any 9-ship fleet is to add one of these ERs; this makes customizing fleet firepower vs. endurance very straightforward.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by wingren013 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:43 pm

it is a cheaper choice for escorting gate fleets than an armor with 2 camels. You can load them with red lasers and have a distraction to sacrifice so that the gate can flee. I believe that they also have a slightly faster tactical speed than armors.
The SOTS2 players guide: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=43082&p=482769#p482769
Ultimate Enemy Mod: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/for ... 01#p499101
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by BlueTemplar » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:10 pm

First, it's only slightly cheaper, and second, from what I've seen, like in SotS1, escorting gate fleets is not worth it unless you _know_ there's an enemy in that system, in which case it's probably better to send a real attack fleet.

And if you had checked, you would have seen that they have the same speed as Armors.

Nice finding ZedF, of course that doesn't really apply to Hivers as they can make a 10 endurance Armor quite easily!

Ah yes, and I forgot to add that Armors are also going to be more multipurpose, by the simple fact they have one more module that you can retrofit to whatever you wish to.

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wingren013
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by wingren013 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:45 pm

I'm not saying that they are the best choice I'm just saying that they have advantages.

Thanks for the tac speed info. I probably had hammerhead on the ER and not the armor and didn't notice.
The SOTS2 players guide: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=43082&p=482769#p482769
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What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Goomich » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:32 am

BlueTemplar wrote:Huh, hivers need A LOT MORE supply than other races because of how slow they are to reach ungated planets!


Don't reach ungated planets. :P

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wingren013
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by wingren013 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:09 pm

Goomich wrote:
BlueTemplar wrote:Huh, hivers need A LOT MORE supply than other races because of how slow they are to reach ungated planets!


Don't reach ungated planets. :P


Then how do you get gates?

Perhaps Hiver ERs could be changed to have improved sensors or some such. Or maybe just a slight supply or strat speed boost.
The SOTS2 players guide: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=43082&p=482769#p482769
Ultimate Enemy Mod: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/for ... 01#p499101
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Mecron
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Mecron » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:02 pm

Or perhaps we can just make it an rts and give them special bug dance ability that recharges :P

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BlueTemplar
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:12 pm

Ooh, is that a spoiler for the upcoming wargame? :P

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Goomich
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What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Goomich » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:15 pm

wingren013 wrote:
Goomich wrote:
BlueTemplar wrote:Huh, hivers need A LOT MORE supply than other races because of how slow they are to reach ungated planets!


Don't reach ungated planets. :P


Then how do you get gates?


Are we still talking about scout ships?

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by The_Founder » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:31 pm

Aranador wrote:I have pretty much found that with any race, an ER hull is a worse choice than an AR hull with 2 x camels, if you actually need that range. The ER hull is slightly cheaper though.

But with SotS2 now always requiring a command ship as part of your fleet, there just isnt any point to building an ER to 'fire and forget' at the other half of the universe. Even in SotS1 there wasnt much point, as a supply ship was better at that job. In 2 though - the command ship will never be an ER command ship, so the fleet will never be an ER fleet, just a fleet with extra supply from supply ships and camel modules.

Now - if the ER hull actually WAS a command ship, albiet with a CP limit of 6 - bingo, new fire and forget scout class right there baby.

Agreed. With the requirement to have a CnC ER became useless.

With Morrigi I found that Supply ships are better for socuting. They cost less money, carry two drones (lower survey times), and have much more range.
Humans do not need them anymore. They have big speed, big supply range of their bases - and they now can refuel on node lines like every other race. So the one advantage of ER does not exist anymore.
Hiver jsut don't need tanker or ER. If they do, you might be missing some very important tech or send way to many ships.
Yes supply are more fragile. But then again wich starting fleet can really engange a swarm hive or Morrigi Relic? And is it worth the extra cost for all those planets & transit turns where you find no Random that makes those ships worthwile? I usually take damage and have to come back later with a real fleet.

About placing gates as Hiver:
1 CnC + 1 Gateship. Hiver do not need Tankers. Or escorts. Even with full missile & Mass Driver weaponry, they still have endurance to throw thier queen a birthday party every year.
If i run into enemies, I just set speed to 150% and run (should keep drones and bees out of range long enough for armor to provide protection) or simply wait (Asterodi Monitors and the like). Once my gate is palced, most randoms will ignore my gates anyway. At wich point I can coem along with a real fleet.

The one race where I found supply really does matters is the Zuul. But here using energy weapones only seems to be the best choice/only choice.

I also had a bunch of Ideas to make the ER more viable again as Scoutship:
- Consider allowing survey missions to not require an Admiral (similar to reserve Transfer missions), but then only ships that can go in such a admiral-less fleet is ships with ER mision section.
- Consider letting the ER ships count as "micro CnC". Each ship only adds enough CP to have itself in the fleet (6 CP or 18 CP for Dread ER). But multiple ER add thier CP values untill they hit the value of a normal CnC (So 5 ER ships would provide and comsume 30 CP, but you can't go beyond to total max of 54 for a CnC at start)
- As they are supposed to be scouts, they should have improved survey ability. Right now travel time takes up a insignificant amount of time, the survey time is the most significant amoutn. And mostly I just throw CnC+Drone Cariers a it, as Drones seems to reduce scounting times quite a bit.
- consider making them a single Section Destroyer sized ship with a destroyer sized Upkeep (500/ship) and CP (2 CP/ship) cost. That would allow to have more along for less production/upkeep cost (wich could improve survey times).

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