What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

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ZedF
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by ZedF » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:45 pm

Don't agree. Read my above post. Whether ERs are useful is situationally dependent on the ER in question in comparison to what other options are available. Saying that ERs are always useless is flat out wrong.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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wingren013
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by wingren013 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:22 pm

Here is a rather simple solution:

Increase ERs strat speed so that other ships can't keep up.

Allow them to provide their own CP.

Give them additional sensor range.

Give them a 10% supply use reduction.

They may not survey fast but they can survey cheaper and farther away.

This a fairly simple mod for those of you who do not like how ERs currently function.
The SOTS2 players guide: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=43082&p=482769#p482769
Ultimate Enemy Mod: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/for ... 01#p499101
(I like line spacing, parentheses, and inter-sentence punctuation; deal with it)

The_Founder
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by The_Founder » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:48 pm

ZedF wrote:Don't agree. Read my above post. Whether ERs are useful is situationally dependent on the ER in question in comparison to what other options are available. Saying that ERs are always useless is flat out wrong.

Situations. For wich you explicitly have to build them.
Having a 5% change that a situation comes up where a ER would be 35% better then a Armor with Camels do not make it worth to have to build them or pay upkeep for them.

They have no ability that makes them decidedly better then any alternative. And those alternatives are usefull and retrofitable for a lot of Situations.

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wingren013
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by wingren013 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:37 pm

ERs as they are now are qauite realistic. In the real world there is not much difference between a long-range vessel and a normal vessel outfitted for long-range missions. They could maybe use a slight price decrease or the ability to conduct survey missions indipendently but they are mostly fine as is.

As for the origional topic of this thread I think the only real use of Hiver ERs is to have that ship type available. As a race that must travel at stl speeds the Hivers have long since learned to give all their ships the qualities associated with an ER. The ships that they dub ERs are for truly long range work or for escorting freighters.
The SOTS2 players guide: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=43082&p=482769#p482769
Ultimate Enemy Mod: http://www.kerberos-productions.com/for ... 01#p499101
(I like line spacing, parentheses, and inter-sentence punctuation; deal with it)

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by ZedF » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:08 pm

The_Founder wrote:
ZedF wrote:Don't agree. Read my above post. Whether ERs are useful is situationally dependent on the ER in question in comparison to what other options are available. Saying that ERs are always useless is flat out wrong.

Situations. For wich you explicitly have to build them.
Having a 5% change that a situation comes up where a ER would be 35% better then a Armor with Camels do not make it worth to have to build them or pay upkeep for them.

They have no ability that makes them decidedly better then any alternative. And those alternatives are usefull and retrofitable for a lot of Situations.

You obviously didn't read the linked post.

It's a 100% chance ERs are the best bet at the start of the game for the purpose for which they are intended, if I start as Humans -- and yes, they are enough better that it's worth building them rather than armours wtih camels, because I'll need fewer of them to keep my endurance up and thus my fleet will have more ships able to contribute to the mission instead of just being there to provide extra fleet range and time on station. You can't retrofit a supply ship to be sturdier or faster, and you can't refit a turn 1 armour to have enough supply to increase the overall endurance of a fleet, regardless of fleet composition. For Humans, ERs can do both of those from the game's start.

The only 'situation' involved in that example is what race am I playing. I'm sure there are other examples, but a 100% chance to be the best option for at minimum the first 50-100 turns of every game as a particular race is enough, in my books, to shoot down any theory that ERs, taken as a whole, are useless. For some races, some of the time, that may be true, but it's not a universal proposition.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Chibiabos
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Chibiabos » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:06 am

I am used to playing Liir. I should probably give up, as I just can't seem to get going on SOTS2 whereas I pwned with them in SOTS1 ... but in regard to ERs, ERs -are- practically useless unless I am missing something. Armors with 2 camel modules on the mission and one in the engine have greater Endurance than an ER with a mission camel and engine camel ... at the start of the game, the armor gets 12T versus 11T for the ER.

The whole point of the ER in SOTS1 was vast range to scout with ... its only advantage in SOTS2 is that it is slightly cheaper (generally less than 10%).

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Karu
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Karu » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:48 am

Chibiabos wrote:I am used to playing Liir. I should probably give up, as I just can't seem to get going on SOTS2 whereas I pwned with them in SOTS1 ... but in regard to ERs, ERs -are- practically useless unless I am missing something. Armors with 2 camel modules on the mission and one in the engine have greater Endurance than an ER with a mission camel and engine camel ... at the start of the game, the armor gets 12T versus 11T for the ER.

The whole point of the ER in SOTS1 was vast range to scout with ... its only advantage in SOTS2 is that it is slightly cheaper (generally less than 10%).


Yes, for the Liir they are pretty much useless. That doesn't mean they are for other races.
SOTS II ist not SOTS I with prettier grafics. It continues the Lore, but the rest is new to learn. Don't expect old concepts to "travel over".


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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Chibiabos » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:05 am

Karu wrote:
Chibiabos wrote:I am used to playing Liir. I should probably give up, as I just can't seem to get going on SOTS2 whereas I pwned with them in SOTS1 ... but in regard to ERs, ERs -are- practically useless unless I am missing something. Armors with 2 camel modules on the mission and one in the engine have greater Endurance than an ER with a mission camel and engine camel ... at the start of the game, the armor gets 12T versus 11T for the ER.

The whole point of the ER in SOTS1 was vast range to scout with ... its only advantage in SOTS2 is that it is slightly cheaper (generally less than 10%).


Yes, for the Liir they are pretty much useless. That doesn't mean they are for other races.
SOTS II ist not SOTS I with prettier grafics. It continues the Lore, but the rest is new to learn. Don't expect old concepts to "travel over".


Sincerly


Honestly, the graphics don't seem to be prettier for me. I have an AMD (ATi) HD 6570, which is a newer card -- though no, not high end -- that plays quite a few even modern games quite smoothly (Skyrim is gorgeous). For some reason, SOTS2 is very clunky, frame rate excruciatingly low, and it looks a lot like its trying to play the wrong resolution with out how blurry things look, even though yes I turned off that blur setting. The combat graphics aren't even really functional, with the frame rate so low I can't make out most weapons fire, missiles puff out as though hit by a weapon of some sort, but there's often no weapon showing from the ship or fleet that seemed to shoot down the missile, and similarly weapon bolts are often not distinctively visible either. Its been a while since I've played SOTS1, but one of the things I do remember is how distinctively "OMG" I felt especially my first time seeing tactical combat, it looked a lot closer to the mark to ship-on-ship slugfests like I'm used to seeing in sci fi movies, how weapons looked and struck ships reacted when hit that made the fire feel a lot more like sci fi movie space battles, and you could get a sense of 'oww, that heavy mass driver just knocked my ship for a serious loop!' With how sluggish the framerate is, and how blurry and indistinct the graphics seem to be in SOTS2, it has lost a lot of that. The tactical combat feels a bit like Master of Orion 3 ... okay, not quite that bad, but a few steps in that direction. :/

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Ashbery76
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Ashbery76 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:50 pm

I think you must be playing another game or just a troll.

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silvaril
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by silvaril » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:59 pm

Heya

Remove some of the graphics options from the loader.

The blurry bits in particular are likely Focal Blur, for instance.
( where the immediate focus has clarity but everything else is blurry )

I prefer to untick the following myself:
Focal Blur
Bloom

I do often just untick the following in the process without it impacting on the visuals negatively:
Refraction
Ambient Occlusion


Try without those active and see what the results are.
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Nspace
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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Nspace » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:23 pm

The other two common causes of blurriness would be having FXAA turned on and having the Texture slider turned down (to the left).

As for clunkyness, it might be a bottleneck in your system. Try this experiment: go to the sensor screen. if your frame rate increases and it's no longer clunky, then the bottleneck is with the graphic card. If going to the sensor screen has no effect on your frame rate, then the bottleneck is with your processor.

Personally, I keep the Textures at max and turn off FXAA, Focal Blur and Bloom and don't have any frame rate or blurriness issues. :)
"Quando omni flunkus, mortati" - "When all else fails, play dead"
SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page
SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by zortlord » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:05 am

Graphics wise, SOTS2 is much much prettier than SOTS1. And this was running it with a gtx6800 prior to my gtx670 (which makes the game absolutely stunning). I wonder if you have a memory bottleneck.

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:00 am

Could you please stop derailing the thread? Thank you.

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by GammaPaladin » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:34 pm

wingren013 wrote:it is a cheaper choice for escorting gate fleets than an armor with 2 camels. You can load them with red lasers and have a distraction to sacrifice so that the gate can flee. I believe that they also have a slightly faster tactical speed than armors.

This seems like a defeatist attitude to me... When I'm playing Hivers I expect to WIN any early game fights, as my ships are just ridiculously stronger than other factions at the early stages. So my gatefleets have 5-6 Armors with my best guns and armor, long range fusion drives, and two camels each.

If there's opposition in the system they arrive to gate, I don't run, I kill it.

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Re: What use do Hiver Extended Range ships have?

Post by Karu » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:46 am

Hiver are very vulnerable to intecepts especially by Tarka or even Morrigi.
As most of their weapons are "sideloaded" puts them into a akward position if not brawling. Their medicore PD (except PD ship) and moderate flight speed doesn't help. On top of that intercepting fleets start close together.

In MP it doesn't matter much if you "kill their fleet" when they snipe your CnC or Gate while you try to "set it up".
It's a nice catch for you, but they bought additional turns. And a slowboating fleet is easy pickings.

Enganging a hiver gated world is tricky, the main concern is killing the gate to negate their staying power (endurance) and cutting of reinforcement.
Hiver are sturdity and quite a missile spammer race, but far from "easy early game win". Especially if you deny brawls and gates.

If I remember correctly mecron sayed that Extended Range ships consume less supply. So the endurance might be missleading - in a pure scout fleet.
Another thing to note is: camels can be shot. They explode, and do quite a good amount of damage to the structure while doing so.


Sincerly

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