FACTION: SOL FORCE

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Mockery
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Mockery » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:44 am

Since it was posted in the SolForce lorebook preview; what the heck is cyberpsychosis? (or was it already defined elsewhere?) Vance was looking a tad unhealthy there.

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Erinys
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:20 am

Not all cybernetic surgery and adjustment goes well. Some humans and aliens cannot adjust to life with a cybernetic body, particularly if the surgery is imposed on them without consent.

Mental breakdown is not a common occurrence with normal post-operative cybernetic patients, but some breaks do occur. The worst of these are psychotic in the extreme. A violent psychotic break along these lines is known as "Cyberpsychosis".

The most famous sufferer of this mental illness was Conrad Vance, the former leader of Green Section.

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Ludovsky
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Ludovsky » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:18 pm

I had the weirdest of thought all of a sudden.

It's been said humans are experts in both engrams and cybernetics, especially since engraming was specifically attributed to human researches once. As it is said, I think I recall hearing that engrams cannot "change", specifically that their vision of the worlds couldn't. However, though it sounded like an engram may be unable to change it's vision or opinion of a thing, I was wondering if they could learn new "knowledges" at least, or create new things based on knowledge they possessed before engramming, for reasons motivated by their world views before being engrammed(and thus the one vision they keep with them as an engram due to their unability to "grow").

Now I was wondering, though, could an engram be put in a body akin to, well, a cyborg and thus appear human?

And alongside another line... if a dying human was to be engrammed and put in a "rebuilt" cybernetic body against their consent in both case... what might results once the new engram becomes active? Could he/she somehow suffer from some form of cyberpsychosis as well?

And I guess to finish this line of thought... could a "cyberpsychotic engram"(if such a thing were possible in any ways) in a cybernetic body to pass as an human have created/programmed something like the Via Damasco virus?

I know, tons of probably extremely flawed questioning that will probably slashed into pieces at the first response, but I was wondering ^^;

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:24 am

Ludovsky wrote:I had the weirdest of thought all of a sudden.

It's been said humans are experts in both engrams and cybernetics, especially since engraming was specifically attributed to human researches once. As it is said, I think I recall hearing that engrams cannot "change", specifically that their vision of the worlds couldn't. However, though it sounded like an engram may be unable to change it's vision or opinion of a thing, I was wondering if they could learn new "knowledges" at least, or create new things based on knowledge they possessed before engramming, for reasons motivated by their world views before being engrammed(and thus the one vision they keep with them as an engram due to their unability to "grow").


The major problem is that Engrams have difficulty updating their base of knowledge. The remnants of the former personality are an obstacle, rather than a help, to the learning process, specifically the part of "learning" where new paths, opinions, and ideas are formed. Engrams tend to quickly forget any new information that they are exposed to post-creation, particularly if it conflicts with a worldview which was important to them in life. And they tend to rely on old facts, patterns and ideas. They can perform a set of functions reasonably well if the person that they used to be was exceptionally well-prepared before death. But subtleties will elude them. And you do not want to be trying to make them understand an ambiguous situation that involves a lot of paradigm shifts that occurred after their deaths.

If you make an engram of a hero of the Hiver War...you do not want to put it in command of a combat vessel after you have signed the peace treaty. His ability to process the new reality might just be...a little glitchy.

Now I was wondering, though, could an engram be put in a body akin to, well, a cyborg and thus appear human?


You can make an engram a Walkabout, yes. ;)

And alongside another line... if a dying human was to be engrammed and put in a "rebuilt" cybernetic body against their consent in both case... what might results once the new engram becomes active?


You could be in a world of hurt. Especially if the person figures out that he/she is really dead, and essentially a ghost walking around in an extremely powerful body.

And I guess to finish this line of thought... could a "cyberpsychotic engram"(if such a thing were possible in any ways) in a cybernetic body to pass as an human have created/programmed something like the Via Damasco virus?


Vance still had a living human brain. And his slide into madness was very long, and very painful. He was a great man once, and had a great deal to offer. But to paraphrase a great author...sometimes the soil of a man's heart can be stony. If you rip out what he loves, take away the people in whom his sense of humanity is invested...he may not recover.

Vance didn't.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:42 am

Huh, so are engrams sort-of like technological analogues in the SotS universe for ghosts in the Dresden Files universe?

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:38 am

*chuckles* His ghosts are even more limited and partial than an engram.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Mockery » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:40 am

So engrams don't tend to last? I assume whatever assets you might get from engramming an admiral or something start to degrade rapidly if said admiral can no longer keep up to date on capabilities and hardware. If he simply can't process the difference between the drones they had when he was around, and these shiny new battleriders, or the difference between having missile launcher and Polaris missile launchers?

Even if effectively immortal as an engram, the timespan in which they are useful seems to be very clearly limited.


(On a different note, thanks for your answers on cyberpsychosis.)

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Darv57
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Darv57 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:10 pm

Question. Could an AI absorb an engram into itself?
As in take in its memories and ideas. I presume their is no way for a personality to be made into a full AI.

Also as far as tissue replacement goes, how much can be made into cybernetics?
Can you make a fully mechanised body with a organic brain?
And on a side note how much can be replaced with synthetic tissue instead of cybernetics?

(God, Every time I go to ask one simple question I think of three more... :oops:
Try to take it as a complement as to the richness of the lore... ;) )

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Ludovsky » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:09 pm

Erinys wrote:The major problem is that Engrams have difficulty updating their base of knowledge. The remnants of the former personality are an obstacle, rather than a help, to the learning process, specifically the part of "learning" where new paths, opinions, and ideas are formed. Engrams tend to quickly forget any new information that they are exposed to post-creation, particularly if it conflicts with a worldview which was important to them in life. And they tend to rely on old facts, patterns and ideas. They can perform a set of functions reasonably well if the person that they used to be was exceptionally well-prepared before death. But subtleties will elude them. And you do not want to be trying to make them understand an ambiguous situation that involves a lot of paradigm shifts that occurred after their deaths.

If you make an engram of a hero of the Hiver War...you do not want to put it in command of a combat vessel after you have signed the peace treaty. His ability to process the new reality might just be...a little glitchy.


.... that sound like that might explains a -lot- about Uncle Peacekeeper from SOTS1, actually now.

Or the Locusts as well, if I recall well what was once written lorewise about them. It really make it sound like "engrams" would thus really be creatures of patterns in a fashion, frozen in a specic era mentally and unable to realizes even that their environment has truly changed at all.

This kind of bring the mental image of an ancient famous person of an empire being engrammed so they are not "lost" and thus can be talked with by the future generations or such*, and indeed start such a conversation with a tourist or whatever, and starts... say, talking about their beloved wife and how they liked X or Y thing she would do as if she was still alive.... even though said wife died hundred of years ago but the engram is just unable to "register" that fact...

Kind of sad in a fashion.



*(kind of like in the same "personality cult" spirit such as iirc was behind the idea of embalming Lenin as was done in the Soviet Union if I recall.... despite Lenin's own wishes... except that unlike an embalmed corpse this one can actually talk back to visiting tourists... of course, in this case such a "Robot Lenin" wouldn't probably even have registered the Soviet Union had fallen even decades after it had I get the feeling...)

Edit: (And damnit, now I can't help but to think about tons of "Engram-Lenin" jokes.)

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Naja » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:55 pm

I'm reminded a lot of the story "Imperial Ghosts" with all this engram talk.

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Erinys
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Erinys » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:45 pm

Indeed. :) That is very much an engram story.

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Naja
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Naja » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:19 am

Being stuck perpetually in the same loop for all eternity and being unaware of the unceasing state of your condition...from a certain point of view, creating an engram is downright abominable.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by ZedF » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:22 am

I don't know that they are necessarily unaware of their condition. I imagine most engrams opted into becoming one -- it takes a live mind to form an engram, after all, and I imagine most empires wouldn't force people into the process.

But being aware on an abstract level and being aware on an instinctual level are different things. I don't imagine many engrams feel or act like they are artificial constructs, despite being intellectually aware of it.
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cakedaemon
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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by cakedaemon » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:30 am

Different question from my previous Node Missile Bioweapon one.

What actually happened to all the node drive equipped destroyers?

Were they completely decommisioned, stuffed in mothballs/reserve or just abandoned in spaceship graveyards.

I think the latter would be interesting for the pirates in SOTS2.

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Re: FACTION: SOL FORCE

Post by Ebondragon » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:58 am

cakedaemon wrote:Different question from my previous Node Missile Bioweapon one.

What actually happened to all the node drive equipped destroyers?

Were they completely decommisioned, stuffed in mothballs/reserve or just abandoned in spaceship graveyards.

I think the latter would be interesting for the pirates in SOTS2.


Now this is an interesting question!

Personally my guess is that with the advent of battle-rider tech they were found to be less than ideal front-line combatants and most were likely recycled. After all even a destroyer is a pretty big chunk of refined alloys and materials that can be reshaped into part of something newer and better. Others probably got sold off to frontier and independent colonies to serve as militia units, but after the Zuul wars which had a unifying effect on the human population they were likely eventually scrapped as Sol Force and their main line combatants took up the job of defense.

That said I'm sure there are still destroyer sized node-drive capable ships being built just in much smaller numbers and they don't serve in any real role that we'd have to worry about in-game. After all there will always be VIPs needing to get from point a to point b on relatively short notice. I mean how does that admiral born in system ABC get to that fleet you're giving him command of that's being assembled in system XYZ? Somebody's got to grab him and drag him out there and if it's not one of the actual combat ships that's doing the hauling that leaves plenty of room for some sort of courier.

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