RACE: THE LOA

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argentus
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by argentus » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:58 pm

Coming back to the Baron problem, i have a few things that keep clashing in my brain and would appreciate some help in sorting them out. I understand that the Loa consider changing the program of a Loa is rape, similar to an involuntary mind-wipe from Babylon 5. But i keep getting hung up on the description of the Baron's transformation and the origin of the code sent by Vance. It is established lore that Vance sent a code that gave the Loa a choice whether or not to serve. But the Transformation of Mister Sunday to the Baron seems like a radical change in both personality and programming.

ScoSteSal118
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:34 am

As I understand, the Loa are really big on free will and self-determination. Since the Mr. Sunday personality was artificially constructed by others and forced upon Sunday/Samedi's will/self, the Loa do not see it as a 'legitimate' personality. Indeed, they see something that destroys that artificial Mr. Sunday personality as something that frees the 'real' personality of Mr. Samedi to express and define itself without outside interference.

argentus
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by argentus » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:46 am

But unless Solforce literally created a fullblown personality and altered it into Mr Sunday, i dont see how that could work. My understanding of A.I.s has always been that they are super-advanced computer programs with key points of sentience either left out or are only surface presentations, such as emotions. If you are saying that the Baron Samedi evolved under the hood so to speak, i can accept that, My main issue is in an inablilty to see why anyone would want to create a truly sentient computer program only to enslave it.

ScoSteSal118
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:53 am

Uh, well, "for teh evulz" and/or "the will to power" are perfectly adequate for at least some folks :twisted:

More seriously, though, the idea here (iiuc/iirc) is that there is a certain spark of creativity or intelligence that only really exists in sentient beings (thus meaning that sentient beings are really important/useful/not really replaceable for a lot of particular applications) and that treating sentient beings with respect and decency is a drag (they won't instantly do what you need them to do, you have to give them something in return for what they give you, etc.) when you can get away with not doing it (and you, as a human being, should be aware of our ability to dehumanize the 'other' when it's convenient...). :roll:

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Erinys
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by Erinys » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:51 pm

argentus wrote:If you are saying that the Baron Samedi evolved under the hood so to speak, i can accept that, My main issue is in an inablilty to see why anyone would want to create a truly sentient computer program only to enslave it.


And yet every day, human parents around the world give birth to children for whom they see no purpose other than to work on a farm, support them in their old age, or to provide an organ donation to an elder brother or sister.

--Arinn
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argentus
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by argentus » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:30 pm

Erinys wrote:
argentus wrote:If you are saying that the Baron Samedi evolved under the hood so to speak, i can accept that, My main issue is in an inablilty to see why anyone would want to create a truly sentient computer program only to enslave it.


And yet every day, human parents around the world give birth to children for whom they see no purpose other than to work on a farm, support them in their old age, or to provide an organ donation to an elder brother or sister.

--Arinn


I see what you mean, just feels wrong to me. I may not be able to fully understand the Loa but if i found out they existed i certainly wouldnt want to enslave them. And i want to thank everyone for their cogent and helpful responses and especially Erinys for creating such an amazing world and the Loa who have challenged all i thought i knew about Cyber sentience and required me to adjust many of my assumptions in that regard. I can only the future is an amazing as the world you have created.

ScoSteSal118
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by ScoSteSal118 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:08 am

Yeah, I'm not so sure that you or I can really say that we 'know' how we'd act in that situation...

Consider that the enslavement of these Loa would be a major strengthener of the military and/or economy, personal drives and peer pressure in the areas of patriotism/self-preservation/promoting the good of the community one belongs to would weigh heavily on the individual. It takes courage and moral fiber to stand up to most of a society like that, which I don't know if I have, and which I am skeptical of predictive claims about. Tim O'Brien put it this way:

“All of us, I suppose, like to believe that in a moral emergency we will behave like the heroes of our youth, bravely and forthrightly, without thought of personal loss or discredit. Certainly that was my conviction back in the summer of 1968. Tim O'Brien: a secret hero. The Lone Ranger. If the stakes ever became high enough—if the evil were evil enough, if the good were good enough—I would simply tap a secret reservoir of courage that had been accumulating inside me over the years. Courage, I seemed to think, comes to us in finite quantities, like an inheritance, and by being frugal and stashing it away and letting it earn interest, we steadily increase our moral capital in preparation for that day when the account must be drawn down. It was a comforting theory. It dispensed with all those bothersome little acts of daily courage; it offered hope and grace to the repetitive coward; it justified the past while amortizing the future.”
― Tim O'Brien, The Things They Carried


Even beyond a simple lack of courage, that is, when one is convicted of the evil of the enslavement of carbonite sentiences and simply fails to stand up, there is a far more insidious and easy path of moral failure. With relatively-subtle and only-partially-conscious self-serving decisions, one can wave such worries away with almost-somewhat-reasonable-sounding thoughts like "how do I know they're really sentient?," "isn't their suffering for the greater good of Humanity?," etc.

To adapt a piece of imagery from Christians, with Hell being replaced by "support of and participation in an evil system":
Even if it is true, given the choice between Heaven and Hell, that someone would not charge into Hell, that is not really the way that claims most people. "Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one--the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts,..." (C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters)
Last edited by ScoSteSal118 on Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

argentus
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by argentus » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:52 pm

You can be skeptical all you want, but we see the world not as it is, but as we are. And yes it did strengthen things in the short term, but like all slavery, crippled in the long run. Do not judge others that you do not know. And all those literary references might work for those who try hard enough but i do not think humanity so weak that it could convince itself of those things for long. It all comes down to choices.

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Mecron
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by Mecron » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:56 pm

Yes and sometime it comes down to being in severe denial given historical and social precedents. But anyway...you have made you point a few times now, time to accept and move on ;)

argentus
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by argentus » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:05 pm

Yes might Mecron *bows*

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Mecron
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by Mecron » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:53 pm

;) Just keepin it civil and progressing

Strategist0083
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by Strategist0083 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:09 pm

Do all the Loa agree that they HAVE to destroy all life on a planet in order to effectively live on it?





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(SOTS version of Cormac McCarthy's "War was always here before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.")
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Resok
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by Resok » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:27 pm

Strategist0083 wrote:Do all the Loa agree that they HAVE to destroy all life on a planet in order to effectively live on it?


Interesting question and my guess is it's viewed as a necessary evil with the goal of ensuring their races survival. Similar to many races view on Biosphere destruction caused by Terraforming efforts as well I'm sure.

My thoughts are the Loa view the cleansing of organic life from a planet as a way to create new life of their own kind. Flora and fauna replaced by their own forms of robotic life. There is plenty of organic life in the universe already - but the Loa as a new race there are few enough to ensure their own survival without the needed sacrifice of existing organic life on planets.

Of course this is purely my own speculation... not sure how on target I am.

Most races probably view the eradication of Loa worlds or other entire worlds of sentient life in a similar way: a necessary atrocity to ensure their race's survival or supremacy in the stars.
- Resok

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Space Voyager
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by Space Voyager » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:22 am

IMO they just see organics as a nuisance, like we see pests. Speaking of non-gun-wielding organics, naturally.

I do wonder if they have any "flora and fauna" of their own. Like... crystal growing or something.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

Azrael Ultima
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Re: RACE: THE LOA

Post by Azrael Ultima » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:06 am

I'm sure some of them would consider the gun wielding ones even bigger nuisances.

On the other hand, there's also bound to be some which are interested in organics for some reason or another.
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