Loa and Free AI's

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Gizmoh
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Loa and Free AI's

Post by Gizmoh » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:21 am

So, Title:
-Is there any difference between a Loa, and an AI living in a society with AI emancipation?
-What happens with AI research in a society with AI emancipation? Is it conducted by emancipated AI's?
-Also, newer AI's are they made, or born? (as in, created in a manner similar to new Loa)
Basically, I'd like to know what effect would have the emancipation of AI's in a society capable of creating AI's, I find the topic fascinating.
I'd like to add, as a preamble, that in my country (Chile), slavery was never strong, so when we signed our own emancipation act it was more simbolic that anything. What I mean is I don't have the "slavery background"('¿?) I imagine most people in north america have, so if you can provide aditional insight or comparisons between the emancipation of black people and AI's you are welcome.

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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by The Apprentice » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:43 am

Have you checked out this thread? (viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36433). There is a section on Loa and reproduction on the first page, if you haven't yet :)
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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Gizmoh » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:43 am

Yes, I've checked it, but my intentions with this thread was on the difference between Loa Ai's and regular Ai's.
I thought, that regular Loa, being freed throught the Via damasco virus, might be in some way different than regular Ai's, and if so, how different, if this makes the OP clearer.

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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by The Apprentice » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:12 am

Ahh. I misunderstood, sorry.
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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Aeson » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:55 am

Firstly, Gizmoh, I must ask what you mean by a society with AI emancipation. A society in which the AIs are not enslaved is not necessarily one in which the AIs are considered equal to the biological citizens, and this is something that matters for how the AI in such a society would perceive itself and behave, and it would affect the kind of opportunities available to that AI. Furthermore, an emancipated AI is specifically one which has been freed from some kind of authority - be that enforced servitude or the authority its 'parents' have over its freedom of action - and an AI which has been emancipated from enforced servitude to a state's biological citizens will likely have a different outlook than an AI which was created and developed in a society in which AIs are second-class citizens, and both will differ from an AI which was created and developed in a state where the AIs are full citizens and fully accepted into society.

The answers that I give below are for the ideal society in which the AIs are equal in rights and status to the biological members of society. My answers would differ if the AIs are considered second-class citizens or resident aliens by the society, and would differ again if by emancipated AIs you specifically mean AIs which have been released from enforced servitude.

Gizmoh wrote:-Is there any difference between a Loa, and an AI living in a society with AI emancipation?

I would expect that there would be at least as much difference between a Loa and an AI created and residing in a society with AI emancipation as there is between a human born and raised French and a human born and raised English, with further differences possible due to the possibility that a dissimilar technology base was used to arrive at the same point (e.g. convergent evolution of technology). An AI that moves from a society with AI emancipation and joins the Loa faction would be about as different from an AI that was created and resides in the same society in much the same way that a Frenchman who emigrates to the US is different from the Frenchman who continues to reside in his or her home town.

There is also the possibility that the five inquiries listed in the Loa thread are more than just a cultural imperative among the Loa, and answering these might be a hard-coded imperative within the Loa. An AI living in a society with AI emancipation might not have such an imperative hard-coded into its being, even if it has some similar way in which it defines itself. It is also possible that an AI created and residing in a non-Loa society might have a different degree of attachment to its physical manifestation than the Loa do; for the Loa, it would appear that the body is just a vessel for the self, but it would seem reasonable to me that an alternative AI culture would make the body an integral part of the self, perhaps in imitation of biological life, perhaps in the belief that the physical is part of the spirit, or perhaps in the belief that copying (or transferring) a program from one machine to another changes that program in ways that make it into a different being (if you want 'real world' equivalent beliefs, perhaps consider beliefs regarding reincarnation, or look to fiction where it is possible to imprint clones with the skills and memories of the cloned being). Note that I'm not necessarily referring to physical alterations to the body, but something more along the lines of "my old car is no longer good enough; let's go buy a new one," as the latter appears to be to a large degree how the Loa regard the physical components in which they reside (including their core), and I don't believe that this is a necessary feature of an artificial intelligence.

Gizmoh wrote:-What happens with AI research in a society with AI emancipation? Is it conducted by emancipated AI's?

I would expect that AI research in an ideal society which has outlawed the enslavement of AIs is conducted in much the same manner as research into human cloning is conducted in the real world. I would further expect that an AI would be as able to conduct such research as a biological member of the same society - i.e., if it's illegal for the humans to conduct the research, it's also illegal for the AIs, while if it's legal for the AIs, it's also legal for the humans. Essentially, as long as it's legal, I expect that an AI which chose to pursue that field of study would be as able to contribute, within the limits of their ability, as a biological member of the society.

Gizmoh wrote:-Also, newer AI's are they made, or born? (as in, created in a manner similar to new Loa)

The mix-and-match code splicing reproduction of Loa can be interpreted as experimentation in mixing pieces from an existing set of patterns for manufacture in addition to its more obviously intended interpretation as a form of sexual reproduction, especially since it appears that the resultant traits can be at least partially selected prior to the mingling (although this is also true of biological sexual reproduction, the description in the Loa thread sounds somewhat more planned - the description sounds a lot like the Loa are able to select which parts of their pattern will be passed on to their offspring; the equivalent with biological sexual reproduction would be if I were able to choose which parts of my genes could get passed on to my offspring). The divide-out-over-several cores method of reproduction can be likened to budding or binary fission, or it can be likened to installing the same operating system on several computers, so do you consider the offspring of bacteria which reproduce by budding or binary fission to be made, or do you consider the offspring to be born? Both of these can be interpreted as part of a manufacturing process, and both of these can be interpreted as birth. Either way, it's the creation of a new being, and since it's presumably a sapient, sentient being, it will be shaped at least in part by its experiences, and will therefore differ from an otherwise identical being with different experiences, and probably even from an otherwise identical being with very similar or identical experiences.

This is essentially a philosophical question, and applies equally well to clones of biological beings, especially in fictional settings in which genetic engineering is a reasonably advanced field - if you and 499 other genetically-identical clones are produced in a factory somewhere, were you and your siblings born, or were you manufactured? If you regard the clones as having been born, there's a good case for calling the creation of the new AI a birth. If you consider the clones to be manufactured, there's a good case to consider the new AI manufactured.

Gizmoh wrote:Basically, I'd like to know what effect would have the emancipation of AI's in a society capable of creating AI's, I find the topic fascinating.

In the short term, you would most likely have a large number of social issues similar to the issues related to racism left over from racially-based slavery. The parts of society which had been accustomed to consider the AIs to be tools and machinery would continue to consider the AIs to be tools and machinery, and would feel a sense of superiority, coupled with resentment that they can no hold the same superior station relative to the AIs. In all likelihood, many of them would attempt to maintain the pre-emancipation status quo as far as legally possible, and potentially farther; this could be anything from "separate-but-equal" establishments such as schools and segregation in commercial centers (e.g. "we don't serve their kind here - your droids, they'll have to wait outside"), to discrimination in the workforce (e.g. biological beings are more likely to be promoted and are on average better paid than AIs serving in equivalent positions, or may be more likely to receive credit, receive an undue share of the credit, or receive generally more credit than their AI coworkers). There would likely be sections of society which dedicated themselves to ensuring that the AIs remain effectively inferior (see, for a real-world example, the Ku Klux Klan) by means of organized discrimination, criminal activities, and political activism, which would be aided by the fact that these kinds of people are likely already in a position of power and therefore have the means to prevent their nominally-equal AI neighbors from obtaining full citizenship (e.g. a law which makes one of the requirements of citizenship that your grandfather was a citizen) or exercising their rights (e.g. making election day take place during normal working hours without requiring that all employers afford their employees adequate time to go to the polls without penalty, should the employee choose to do so). There will likely also be attempts during this period and into the mid-term to "prove" in some manner that the oppressed group is inferior and therefore does not deserve full rights and citizenship.

In the mid-term, you would most likely have a strong, politically active group attempting to get lawmakers to act on the real and perceived injustices of the system. This could take the form of passive resistance to bring attention to the injustices, or it could take a more violent path in which the oppressed group attempts to force its oppressors to correct some of the injustices of the system. Either way, it's likely to bring violence from the more extreme members of the oppressing side, and many people content with the status quo will resent the activists for 'stirring up trouble.' At some point in this period, it will most likely begin to become unacceptable to publicly and openly despise AIs, which will lead to the birth of another form of political correctness, since clearly everything's all well and good if everything is couched in polite but meaningless nonsense. There will also likely be attempts to correct the effects of the biases by such actions as mandating that a certain minimum percentage of incoming students at a university are of the oppressed group, and decisions which would go unquestioned if handed down for a member of the non-oppressed group (e.g. denied entry to a university) will be questioned if handed down for a member of the oppressed group; this can also go the other way, with accusations of compensating for former oppression by making the standards for the oppressed group too lax by comparison to the standards for the non-oppressed group.

It will also be more difficult for the members of the oppressed group who take the first step than for those who follow in their paths, as any failure on the part of those leading will be pounced upon by those who wish to maintain the status quo, and used as "evidence" of the inferiority of the oppressed, justifying their continued repression. The members of the non-oppressed side which give members of the oppressed a chance to prove themselves may also see themselves as taking a large risk due to the potential for backlash from the people who have money and power and an interest in maintaining the status quo. Both those who give members of the oppressed side a chance and the members of the oppressed side who take the lead in showing that the oppressed side can function as well as the non-oppressed side will often become targets of more extreme members of the oppressing side, and may receive threats, be ill-treated, or be attacked for their "impudence" in "rising above their proper station" or in sacrificing the job of a member of the non-oppressed group to allow the member of the oppressed group a chance.

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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Space Voyager » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:37 am

A bit shorter, if I understood correctly (and if I did, I agree with Aeson); technically there is no difference between a Loa and an AI that does not live in a Loa collective.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Aeson » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:18 pm

Space Voyager wrote:A bit shorter, if I understood correctly (and if I did, I agree with Aeson); technically there is no difference between a Loa and an AI that does not live in a Loa collective.

More or less, though I would tend to allow for the possibility of different "species" of AI if there are sufficiently dissimilar technology bases that the AI from one technology base is not sufficiently compatible with the AI of another technology base to allow the code-splicing method of reproduction. This is fairly clearly not the case for the known technology bases, and so, to use biology terminology, an AI manufactured by SolForce is of the same species as an AI manufactured by the Tarka, and the same holds for AIs manufactured by the other empires.

As such, given the current set of technology bases, the only differences between a Loa and an AI living in a society in which AIs are not legally enslaved are related to culture, personality, and possibly experience and available opportunities (because, as I said earlier, the fact that something is no longer enslaved, and even the fact that something legally has all the same rights and protections and opportunities that you do, does not in practice mean that that something is equal to you in the rights it is allowed to exercise, the opportunities it is given, and the protections it is afforded), rather than any significant inherent technological differences between the two AIs. If your choices and experiences define who and what you are, then yes, there's a difference between an AI which chooses to reside among its own kind and an AI that chooses to reside among humans, and there's a difference between both of those AIs and an AI that chooses to reside among Tarka, and so on. That difference, however, is not some inherent characteristic, and so it's much like the difference between the English and the French, or between Europeans and Asians, rather than being similar to the difference between humans and dolphins or humans and Tarka. Culturally, they're different. Biologically (or, for the AIs, technologically)? Not so much.

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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Space Voyager » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:39 am

Interesting, this "AI species" thought. Definitely, given that (biologic) empires had individual AI research, the coding must have been completely different. As such the AIs would not be compatible.

Yet, becoming sentient, an AI probably has an option to optimize itself, meaning rewriting it whole. Something bio races are probably doing to themselves (we've already started), too, except that it is most likely limited to offspring. If nothing else, removing the genetic defects.

But with an AI, I would venture a guess that it can alter itself dramatically, though it would not want to lose its self-awareness or becoming another person in the process.

When the AIs gathered, there was probably a "standard coding" set to make them all compatible, or, in another words, to make them all of equal specie. I'm guessing wildly here but I'd think that only the ones who decided not to fit in are left incompatible or even form an AI specie of their own.

Sorry, too much speculating for one post, I know.

Oh, if Arinn takes a moment to clarify, I'd also ask if all the species in the SotSverse are DNA based (as ways to transfer bio informations to offspring)?
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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Space Voyager » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:27 pm

Are all the species in the SotSverse DNA based (as ways to transfer bio informations to offspring)?
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

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Loa and Free AI's

Post by zanzibar196 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:20 pm

Space Voyager wrote:Are all the species in the SotSverse DNA based (as ways to transfer bio informations to offspring)?


Definitely not. Take the loa for example,


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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Azrael Ultima » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:01 pm

That just brings up the question of whether "species" is really an appropriate term when talking about Loa and AI in general.

Or anything without DNA or an equivalent mechanism.
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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by The Apprentice » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:41 am

I would think the biological question about DNA would need to be refined. What is the real thing the question is designed to illuminate?

Are there other methods of reproduction in complex biological organisms that don't require DNA? Probably. What is special about DNA and life in the Sotsverse though?

Is DNA required for a species to be sapient in the sotsverse? Decidedly not, looking at the Loa. Hence, I wonder why it was asked. :)
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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Space Voyager » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:31 am

Very funny guys, very funny. Loa would not be transferring any bio informations either. So, please read that as BIOLOGICAL species...
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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by The Apprentice » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:51 am

I think my reply may have come across as more sarcastic than intended. :oops:

Anyway, since there are species of virus that work on Earth now without DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-str ... NA_viruses) I'm still confused about your question.

Do you mean only species over a certain size, or what?
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Re: Loa and Free AI's

Post by Space Voyager » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:13 am

More of a "Does SotSverse allow for completely different ways of bio information transfer?". SotS fact is that all the species (BIOLOGICAL, and I'm speaking of playable species) are carbon based, so I don't know about variety in other bio systems.

The thought actually arrived from Alien franchise and Alien hacking DNA of the victim. That kinda makes sense after Prometheus as we both have the same makers, yet AvP has that same DNA hacking for the Predator and it struck me that Predator may not even have DNA... So the thought transferred itself to SotS.

It was also not meant to be a PhD in Biology, so screw RNA. ;)
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