Industrial Technology

Research and Development in SotS2.
Subanrab
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Subanrab » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:30 pm

Ah, my imagination still runs away I have to say - apologies Mecron. :) Just really looking forwards to the leviathans! :thumbsup:
"Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!!"

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Mecron
Kerberos
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Mecron » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:34 pm

lol I understand...I just sometimes feel duty bound to reign some of this stuff in before you guys get so worked up that the reality of it becomes dissapointing ;)

Subanrab
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Subanrab » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:31 pm

I doubt very much that the reality will disappoint - everything you've revealed so far has looked pretty good to me! Really looking forwards to this game! :thumbsup:
"Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!!"

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Naja
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Naja » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:16 pm

Could you please explain what in-game effects "biosphere damage" means, Mecron?

Does that mean resource loss (like the Zuul in SOTS1), population loss, hazard rating moving in a weird direction, or just having to tie up resources constantly terraforming your planet?

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nickersonm
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by nickersonm » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:08 am

I would assume the biosphere is the destructible/overharvestable portion of a planet's resources.

Ryoku
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Ryoku » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:27 am

I'd imagine biosphere damage is done from overharvesting/overpop, and is done relatively easily, repairing the damage will be something else though.

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fiendishrabbit
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by fiendishrabbit » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:31 am

Mecron wrote:Go and look at pictures of the actual dockyards that actually produce cruisers....then think about fitting all of that into a ship...even a 900 meter one....AND still having room for engines....and people....and the stuff to make ships with. The word "modular" does not leap to mind.


Unless it's Zuul style.

1. Take Wreckage.
2. Weld it together.
3. Jury rig engines and weapons.
4. ???
5. Profit!
You can't trust the Liir. Never trust someone that smiles all the time.

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eVu
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by eVu » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:15 am

fiendishrabbit wrote:
Unless it's LIBYAN style.

1. Take Wreckage.
2. Weld it together.
3. Jury rig engines and weapons.
4. ???
5. Profit!


Just fixed that ^^

Blackwarder
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Blackwarder » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:51 am

Image

Warder

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texturion
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by texturion » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:00 am

I 'd expect a more lengthy discussion on the subject of Industrial Technology. After all, if you don't have it, you don't have ships or enough of them, therefore every other technology doesn't really matter, if or rather when faced with a numerically superior force. Technology can certainly help (yes, another fan of Honor Harrington's antics and how the Manticoran fleets decimated their enemies using superior technology), however, if technology is on the same level, then I fear that superior numbers would prevail. To counter them, you 'd need more ships. To have more ships you need to invest on Industrial technology. I don't know if this is applicable here, however I keep thinking of "Liberty" ships, how quickly they were developed, how fast they were built and how they changed the course of the war, by enabling logistic support wherever they could reach.

Because of Honor Harrington books (A big thanks to David Weber), I kinda expect to see both insystem mobile shipyards of every size, capable of producing from fighters and parasites to DNs and bigger ships. IIRC, Manticore's enemies attacked the Manticoran home system specifically to destroy said shipyards (that were both around the planet and scattered in asteroids as well) to deny Manticore the chance to build and crew a new ship, after they had theirs destroyed at the hands of the enemies of Manticore. It was understood by everyone in that series of books just how important the shipyards were, both around the planets and those dispersed in the asteroid fields. I understand it is very late in the development now to depict those ingame, however that 'd be nice to have, maybe with an expansion at a later date. The ramifications would be staggering I think. It might be considered a trivial level of abstraction for some, however I think that it might be one of the most important aspects of space naval warfare.

Think about it for a while. If on the same shipyards that you built one passenger liner per year, with enough investment to make them bigger and enough research, you could build 2 DN's in 2 months wouldn't that significantly improve your chances? Wouldn't that be something? It probably would take decades, still, that 'd be a sight to behold. One of the aspects of SOTS1 that I think were very nicely done were the transports within the areas of your empire. IIRC, they were used only for trade between your worlds. I want to propose a different employment for them, ore and metal transport, without of course losing the one they currently have (trade goods between the worlds of your empire). I think that increases in production should be tied with them somehow, showing how the transports could provide some ship parts that in turn make the shipyards more efficient and productive, whereas should enemies limit the number of transports that get through your industrial capability will suffer as a result. This would make commerce raiding both a consideration to defend against and a chance to significantly reduce the enemy's industrial capability. Another idea is for the cruiser sized hulls (maybe buildable in bigger size this time around?), the ore miners and fuel refineries (that were left on areas that you controlled and were supposed to add to your industrial capability) to be much more important this time, with the player sending out small flotillas centered around those ore refineries, protecting them as they send back valuable metals for your war effort. I think that their importance should increase and tied with the transport status (if there are enough transports to deal with the metals that those mobile ore miners and mobile fuel refineries produce).
Reference thereof:
http://sots.rorschach.net/Refinery_Section
http://sots.rorschach.net/Mining_Section
With more than one planet on the system, having one of them, or even both, would be a significant bonus for resources for the player, maybe up to the point that resource gathering operations using those would be an integral part of developing and expanding the shipyards, because without enough metals, how would the DN's be built? Or the even larger ships? Therefore, I propose a way to employ every single one of those, (improvement of ship building infrastructure, ore mining both insystem and also in nearby unsettled systems and the use of transports to carry metals to the shipyards) so that a multiplication of the industrial capability is reached. That's how it could be done. Base industrial capability, 100 shipyard points. Upgraded, 300 points. Insystem ore miners 300*3=900 points. Outsystem ore miners (if enough transports are available to carry the ore and metals they produce to the shipyard in question) *3*4 (for each system that they come from, here for example they come from 4 systems) 900*12=10800 shipyard points. Comparing that to the base 300 upgraded shipyard (even if other upgrades would double or even triple that), would make no sense, if a choice was to be had between the two as everyone would go both for the insystem ore miners and fuel refineries AND the outsystem ones, along with the transports needed to carry them. Please note that the numbers that I used are arbitrary, because I unfortunately don't have SOTS 1 installed to provide realistic numbers, the closest possible to what the game uses. I hope those who read it understand what I mean. Waiting to purchase the boxed version of SOTS ][ much like everyone else here, I presume, drooling over the pics and videos released so far. Here's hoping that Mecron and team deliver the goods.
Αιωνία σου η Μνήμη, ΑνδÏ

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Inspector
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Inspector » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:17 am

texturion wrote:...


While I think that your ideas were all deeply interesting, and that some of them are definitely applicable, I for one don't think I would enjoy playing SOTS with that much micro. I like the fact that I don't have to worry about how much of a specific resource I have, and can just purchase things for a fee from my treasury. This is probably just a personal taste thing, and I certainly can't speak to what is actually being done by the dev team.

Mining ships already exist in SOTS prime, though not quite in the way you're imagining, and as far as naval yards in general go, those are already going to be in the game in a big, big way. There's a lot more information on the topic of stations here, if you're interested. viewtopic.php?f=47&t=20360

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Trithne
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Trithne » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:36 am

Expecting to see something in one sci-fi setting because it's in another sci-fi setting seems a bit daft. Also managing trade ships was already a pain in the rear for many players, managing resource ferrying ships would be even worse, considering the enlarged scope of sots2.

Also
...how the Manticoran fleets decimated their enemies using superior technology...

Superior technology and they only destroyed one ship in ten? That's pretty bad results if you ask me.

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Starknight
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by Starknight » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:32 am

Trithne wrote:Expecting to see something in one sci-fi setting because it's in another sci-fi setting seems a bit daft. Also managing trade ships was already a pain in the rear for many players, managing resource ferrying ships would be even worse, considering the enlarged scope of sots2.


Given the scope of some SotS Prime games, managing resources like that would have been darn near impossible. I've had a number of games run over 500 turns just playing random.

Also
...how the Manticoran fleets decimated their enemies using superior technology...

Superior technology and they only destroyed one ship in ten? That's pretty bad results if you ask me.


He's using 'decimated' in the colloquial fashion, meaning 'to overwhelmingly destroy'.

And actual Roman decimation as a punishment? Tie the century (100 men) to stakes in a circle. Start counting. Each time you count 10, kill that man. Repeat until *1* is left. Release that man with a full pardon and incorporate him in a new century. Cuts down insubordination and military coups a whole bunch. :)
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bificommander
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by bificommander » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:36 pm

Starknight wrote:And actual Roman decimation as a punishment? Tie the century (100 men) to stakes in a circle. Start counting. Each time you count 10, kill that man. Repeat until *1* is left. Release that man with a full pardon and incorporate him in a new century. Cuts down insubordination and military coups a whole bunch. :)


Oh thanks for letting me know, when I read that I couldn't stop thinking untill I figuered out where you gotta stand to survive.

Unless I made a mistake, I think that if you call the first guy that gets killed guy number 1 and you count guys number 2,3,4,5.. in the same order the executioner counts, you gotta make sure you're number 17 to be the only one remaining, from the little piece of code I wrote. But I won't bet my life on it, which is not good enough given the situation.
"If you conquor these hu-mons in a single day, I shall make you ruler of their puny planet."
"Thank you your emminence. And if I should take two days?"
"I shall make you pretend to enjoy it."
"One day it is."

lanteanboy
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Re: Industrial Technology

Post by lanteanboy » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:52 pm

bificommander wrote:
Starknight wrote:And actual Roman decimation as a punishment? Tie the century (100 men) to stakes in a circle. Start counting. Each time you count 10, kill that man. Repeat until *1* is left. Release that man with a full pardon and incorporate him in a new century. Cuts down insubordination and military coups a whole bunch. :)


Oh thanks for letting me know, when I read that I couldn't stop thinking untill I figuered out where you gotta stand to survive.

Unless I made a mistake, I think that if you call the first guy that gets killed guy number 1 and you count guys number 2,3,4,5.. in the same order the executioner counts, you gotta make sure you're number 17 to be the only one remaining, from the little piece of code I wrote. But I won't bet my life on it, which is not good enough given the situation.


and what if the executioner decides to start counting in REVERSE, your number 17 is screwed now.

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