Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Research and Development in SotS2.
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qjachym
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Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by qjachym » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:36 am

Can anyone enlighten me how does research success mechanics eaxctly works?

(I've tried searching for it in the Forum, and even asking in game chat but I didn't geat any reliable answers)

I can't remember a situation wen a tech I was trying to research actually failed (maybe many patches ago) - they are researched or go over budget and are never researched, but they never actually fail.

My perfect (and I assume wrong) visualisation of feasibility is:
- I want to research ie. AP Rounds
- Feasibility study shows 68% (Wiki shows 95% for humans, and I know that the range is about 1-95%, but in my perfect vision it should be a range between: (max/2)% - (max)% (42% - 95%))*
(For example a Sulka tech with basic 20% should get a range 10-30%)
- I research AP Rounds and it gets (after a number of turns) to 100%
- now every turn I have 68% (previously rolled) to get the tech (If i had 19% on the Suulka tech (given as an example above) then I had to go heavly go over budget to finally roll a 19% to get the tech)

I know that there are breakthroughs implemented, but I ignored them above.

I know that Kerberos really likes their idea, but if I play Sol force I restart the game untill I get: Phlanx PD, HEAP rounds and Adamantite Armor (and sometimes I roll some below 10% on them).
*In my opinion some races are intended to have some techs (if they have 80-90% they should spend more or less money on them but eventually ALWAYS get them in every game)

Can anyone give me a hinch how far am I from the reality?

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Resok
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by Resok » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:15 am

Heya, my understanding of how it works is as such:

At the start of the game there is a random roll for each tech link and it stores what your 'real' feasibility chances. Every time you run a feasibility study you get a number based around that 'real' number +/- a variable random range.

This is effectively giving you an overall estimate of how feasible it is to succeed at researching this technology.

I've failed the techs you've mentioned as the races you've mentioned... the research goes all the way up to 200% and then fails and lets you know. You can still later acquire this tech via salvage efforts.
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qjachym
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by qjachym » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:57 am

Thanks, It confirms my suspicions.

Additlional questions.

Does it look like:
a) the game knows that the tech will be or is never to be researched and gives a player hint but it does not have to have anything with the reality (it shows 68% but it can be already fixed that it will never be accomplished, or it shows 29% but is already fixed that it will be possible)
b) feasibility of 68% means that there is one or more rolls (with around 68% probability) to get this tech during the research

I'm also playing Suulka and tried to reach Metakinesis (feasibility 17%). I have reached nearly 300% and still no info about failing the research so it (and couple of other examples) has given me a thought that there is a continuous check to research the tech - maybe there is a failing after a fixed number of tries.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:00 pm

I'd say it's a), but I might be wrong. Also, people said in the chat failing techs with 99% feasibility or succeeding with 1% of feasibility... both extremely rare occurrences of course!

I think that this system is supposed to make you think outside of the box and try a different strategy when you've failed that "critical" tech.

That 300% seems really weird, AFAIK any tech is supposed to fail if it goes over 200%, maybe you found a bug?

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Karu
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by Karu » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:23 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:That 300% seems really weird, AFAIK any tech is supposed to fail if it goes over 200%, maybe you found a bug?


As soon as you go over 200% it fails (or succedes). Anything else would be a bug (Please post a savegame then).

Also it is called sadorandomizer for a reason - like liir not getting shields (95% chance) or any other shieldtech (happend to me :evil: ).
It is a fine and also sometimes manacing experience to fail percieved "core techs" - but sometimes the workaround proves to be very usefull - and sometimes it make or break games.

Sincerly

qjachym
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by qjachym » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:41 am

Please explain to me the (We are talking theoretically - it does not have anything with the game) how the scientsits are not able to research something.
I cannot imagine that the race cannot find on their planets one outstanding scientist who cannot make a breakthrough.
I can understand that the next step (ie. from Shields I to Shields II) in current tech is extremly difficult (21%) so we need more money and time than we expected (going over the budget).
I can understand that the tech, which was predicted for 10 tuns, I had to research for 25 turns, but at last they got it.
The generals die and come, so can the scientists - lets wait for the better ones.

I just don't like the idea that the tech is not possible to research.

I wish there was another way... for example:
I study the feasibility -> I roll 40% (where the basic was 95%) -> I research the tech and fail -> I have the possiblity to study feasibility again (because las projest last couple of years) with another approach to reroll it -> now I get 70% -> I research the tech and finally get it -> I am happy :)

I do not like to be forced to do something - It spoils my game.
If I want to play as Sol force with energy weapons - I do so, If I want to play them with ballistic weapons - I do so... If I really want to try a tech and I find out after 200 tunr that I rolled 3% for it... it really destroys my pleasure.

Kerberos: Please, make an optional approeach (button in game creation for example where you pick races and system) to the feasibility to make this game more pleasent to players like me.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:24 am

You're not forced to do something, you're forced to not to do something, and try something else instead (and usually you have several choices open to you).

I guess you could just play with the "every tech is a core tech" mod.

As soon as you go over 200% it fails (or succedes).

If I'm not mistaken, any tech that goes over 150% will fail.

qjachym
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by qjachym » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:15 am

I must admit that I was a bit lazy and I gave up pretty soon yesterday while searching for research files.
Can you please give me a hint where can I find feasibility and research mechanics in the game (for modding purposes)?

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Resok
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by Resok » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:27 am

qjachym wrote:I must admit that I was a bit lazy and I gave up pretty soon yesterday while searching for research files.
Can you please give me a hint where can I find feasibility and research mechanics in the game (for modding purposes)?


Hit up the modding forums - there may be something already done that you're looking for.
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Azrael Ultima
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by Azrael Ultima » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:13 am

- now every turn I have 68% (previously rolled) to get the tech (If i had 19% on the Suulka tech (given as an example above) then I had to go heavly go over budget to finally roll a 19% to get the tech)


To my knowledge, the chance is only dependant on time elapsed and becomes 100% at 150% research, provided you actually got the tech at the start of the game.
Feasibility is not a chance, it is the likelyhood you have access to that technology.(i.e. if you get a 50%, you will have that tech in 50 of 100 games on average) If the research fails, you never had a chance to get it in the first place.
Feasibility studies do not affect your chance to get a tech, they only tell you what they are.

What techs you can get or not get is determined at the start of the game and remains fixed for that session.
If you succeed in researching a tech, you will always succeed at that tech in that session, if you fail, you will always fail, no matter how often you reload and try again.

Do note that techs with multiple links leading to them get multiple independent chances and require multiple, independent feasibility studies if the currently active link is a miss(to do another feasibility study, you have to research and fail a "bad" link first).
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qjachym
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by qjachym » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:44 pm

I was enlightened! :)
I believe I discovered how the research works... :)

There is a TechFeasibilityDeviation Modifier (TFD) in defaultstratmodifiers.xml file and its value is 0.5 (=50%)

Let's take some data in consideration:
- every research can be finished up to 200%
- every research fails at 200%
- every research has a basic value
- modifier given above is 50% (TFD)

Let's throw out a feasibility because is shows a value between 1 and basic value + x% - its rubbish :)

The formula I believe is:
Basic value (75% for Adamandite Armor for Sol force) is taken at the beginning of the game and is modified by the TFD so it can be in range 75%-50% and 75%+50% = 25% and 125%

To coplete the research you must gather 100% research points before the tech gets to 200% and fails.
25% means that at the 100% (predicted research time) there will be only 25% points gathered, so 50% at 200% so the tech will fail.
125% means that there will be a breakthrough because 100% points will be gathered before the given time in turns.

But if we change the TFD value 0.5 to 0.1 then the Adamantite armor for Solforce will have a value from 65%-85% so the tech will ALWAYS be researched before failing at 200%.

In short, all the tech with base value of 60% or higher will always be for current race, and the techs below 40% will never be researched.
I think that this is the partial solution I was looking for.

P.S. Even if I am wrong. If we change the TFD value to 0, the feasibility will show the exact percentage for the tech. If the percentage is above 50% then the tech should be available.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:05 pm

I don't think that's the way it works...
That's the way I see it :

Every turn, if the game rolled the tech as "researchable" (like in SotS1) there's a random check for whether there's a breakthrough that depends on the tech completion. At 150% the tech is a success in any case.
If the tech has NOT been rolled as "researchable", then there are no breakthrough rolls, and it fails at 200%.

So feasibility has nothing to do with that.

qjachym
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by qjachym » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:33 pm

In my post if the tech has rolled value below 50% (base - mod) then is not researchable so it covers yor researchability (or not).
I would be not so sure that at 150% all researchable techs are success.
You may be right about random breakthroughs - I remeber when I loaded a game from before 100 turns and did not have a breakthrought for quark resonators.
So the tech above 100% can be stated as 100% but with chances for a breakthrough.
I'm goning to experiment with that value.

Azrael Ultima
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by Azrael Ultima » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:39 pm

Yeah, that's entirely wrong.

Feasibility does not affect your chance to research it in any way. It just displays them to you.
The actual research functions identical to SotS1.
I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts.
The zeppelin of bluster Feldman excoriated Freddy with suddenly popped into a cloud of humility. (David Grand, The Disappearing Body, 2002)

Launch apathy protocols. Visual rotational thrusters engaged. Scroll command to HAND/DEXTER/02 received. Submitting pressure request to location Left Mouse. Visual augur confirms hit on Planetary Annihilation General Discussion.

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Resok
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Re: Feasibility Studies Mechanics

Post by Resok » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:28 pm

Yeah, as has been stated already - Feasibility is only a perception of 'how valid' a tech link is. Beyond this Mecron has stated that the tech is either there or it's not. Looking in the save file content itself you see that the feasibility is either '0', or a decimal number like 0.9, 0.55 or 0.25. This is the 'Real' feasibility for any given tech link. There is another table that stores each technology state to the player which includes the 'player feasibility' which is a random number based in part by the 'real' feasibility number (based on all of the available tech link feasibility) plus a positive and negative randomization based around that core number. The deviation number I believe is what determines the +/- random deviation range from the 'real' feasibility.
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