range?

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ran2
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range?

Post by ran2 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:47 pm

In SotS prime we all know the weapon ranges were way to short and should have been longer. Will this be the same in SotS ][?

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jp161
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Re: range?

Post by jp161 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:57 pm

We do? I'm curious, where did you get this infromation? I must have missed a memo... :roll:

Seriously though, being polite goes long way here, being "i-know-it-better-than-the-developers".. Not so much.

But as it has been said, yes, weapons have longer range.

Azrael Ultima
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Re: range?

Post by Azrael Ultima » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:49 pm

I'm pretty sure "We All" is actually some guy who "knows" things perceived majorities believe. Never met him, though.
I bet he also has a pet alot.

But yes, longer range this time around. Would have been rather impractical with LVs around otherwise.
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ran2
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Re: range?

Post by ran2 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:43 pm

sorry for my arrogance, but i just assumed this info since a DN could fire about ship length away without missiles....

EntropyAvatar
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Re: range?

Post by EntropyAvatar » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:57 pm

It's a matter of taste, but the weapon ranges in prime were too short for my personal cinematic sweet spot. That said, longer weapon ranges in ][ are going to play very differently and I'm sure it will reveal some drawbacks.

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Mecron
Kerberos
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Re: range?

Post by Mecron » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:57 pm

ran...like most things in sots, that kinda depended on the weapon. :thumbsup:

ran2
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Re: range?

Post by ran2 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:55 am

Mecron wrote:ran...like most things in sots, that kinda depended on the weapon. :thumbsup:


Well yeah but lets take the X-ray laser on a human dreadnought for example and compare it to a 40mm Bofors L/60 autocannon on the USS Missouri (BB-63) Iowa class battleship. The USS Missouri a ship with armed with somewhere between 70 and 80 40mm Bofors is 270m long. The human DN with Point Deflector bridge, Armor midsection, and N-Pathing Antimatter engine can mount 24 X-ray lasers and is also 270m long(acorrding to this http://sots2.rorschach.net/Ship_size_comparison). The X-laser range is somewhere between 270 and 320 meters. The Bofors has an effective range of 4km but can reach a little over 7km.

Now its not fun to watch 2 ships fight from so far away that they can't see what they are shooting at but at the same time if the ships are so close that they might as well be the pirates of the Caribbean and HMS Elizabeth then I might as well play empire total war.

I think the weapon ranges should be balanced to where the ships are not constantly bumping into one another, but any longer than that would make the game a bit uninteresting.

It would be cool if the planets and ships were scaled to actual size but as EntropyAvatar said it is a matter of taste. I know what I'm asking for is a lot and I don't expect yall to do anything at this point in the development cycle to conform to me. I'm just voicing my point of view and Looking forward to SotS ][ :thumbsup:

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Mecron
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Re: range?

Post by Mecron » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:18 am

ok...reality time....you shoot beams at things you NEVER see. You shoot missiles that take DAYS to reach their targets and most ships die without ever seeing the enemy... Reality NOT your friend when it comes to enjoyable game combat...so really not much of a point waving numbers around at an old warhorse. ;)
SotS2 will have longer ranges mainly because the ships are bigger and the battlefield is MUCH bigger. So there will be some BVR combat and some knife fighting onsode a kilometer...cause...you know...the point is to have some fun. :thumbsup:

ran2
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Re: range?

Post by ran2 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:07 am

Mecron wrote:ok...reality time....you shoot beams at things you NEVER see. You shoot missiles that take DAYS to reach their targets and most ships die without ever seeing the enemy... Reality NOT your friend when it comes to enjoyable game combat...so really not much of a point waving numbers around at an old warhorse. ;)
SotS2 will have longer ranges mainly because the ships are bigger and the battlefield is MUCH bigger. So there will be some BVR combat and some knife fighting onsode a kilometer...cause...you know...the point is to have some fun. :thumbsup:


Well duh, the whole point my post was to help make the game more fun but stupid me forgot to mention that!!!! :oops: Yeah down to the letter reality games are no fun but a little bit doesn't hurt. like 20% realistic ranges 100% realistic scale some ridiculousness time scale out of combat, then like... IDK, if yall can make the game fun and believable ill be much happier. SOTS prime is fun but not believable. I dont know about SOTS ][, not in the beta

Azrael Ultima
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Re: range?

Post by Azrael Ultima » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:43 am

You realize that realistic ranges in space are several orders of magnitude higher than what we see in the game?

20% of the realistic range would still end you up with ships on the edge of the map being able to shoot stuff on the other side. With emitters.

That kind of thing might work in a text based game, but it's not really feasible in anything with graphics. You either bore people to tears or you just say "oh, f it" and drop the realism to make something that's actually playable.
If that requires you to reduce weapon range to far less than 1% of what they would realistically be, well, sorry, but you'll have to deal with that.

A space combat game can never be believable and fun, unless you find staring at statistics fun or like text games.
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fiendishrabbit
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Re: range?

Post by fiendishrabbit » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:25 pm

There is a reason why series like Star Trek (where practically every weapon has a range of over 100.000 kilometers) still shows almost every duel as being in knifefighting range.

It's visually interesting.
As a Battlefleet Gothic player though I'm 100% desensitised to the "Ships are not to scale" problem, so what do I know.
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ran2
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Re: range?

Post by ran2 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:31 pm

I didn't want to mention homeworld 2 but oh well. That game had ranges done right.

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AlanF5
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Re: range?

Post by AlanF5 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:29 pm

ran2 wrote:The X-laser range is somewhere between 270 and 320 meters.

:? But the X-laser range is actually between 625 and 975 meters.
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Jandor
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Re: range?

Post by Jandor » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:27 pm

Azrael Ultima wrote:A space combat game can never be believable and fun, unless you find staring at statistics fun or like text games.


I do actually 8) .

Although seriously, I should learn how to code or something because I think a 'realistic' space combat game would be sweet, like a combination of Chess, Poker and Neptune's pride, all about optimal positioning and bluffing and then BAM someone opens fire and you've either won or messed up :mrgreen: .

SotS Prime and SotS II are not that game, and I don't want them to be that game, which is good because Kerberos aren't making that game.

I think the weapon range limits in the original SotS where a least partially due to the rigs available in 2006 weren't they? What with the CPU having to track every object you can only have them fly so far before the PCs of the time melted.
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mistervec
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Re: range?

Post by mistervec » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:18 pm

I don't want a "realistic" space combat game because I don't think space-born combat, as it is usually presented in sci-fi, is "realistic". It's usually just age-of-sail, WWI, or WWII naval combat modified for a three-dimensional environment.

What I DO want is a consistent, balanced, and enjoyable space combat game where the game play is always the primary consideration.

Take planetary assaults in SotS1. Game play wise, they can be tough, especially in the early game. Well developed planets have a lot of "hit points" and fire off a stream of hard-hitting planetary defense missiles.

Realistically, a small fleet of cruiser-sized ships isn't going to be able to put an entire planet down. Realistically, that planet is swarming orbit-capable military and civilian vessels that can mobilize to defend it. Realistically, that planet is going to have access to more defensive weapons systems than just nukes strapped to rockets. Any weapons system that's capable of hitting a planetary surface from orbit is also capable of hitting an orbiting ship from the planet's surface, after all, and can be mounted on an orbital weapons platform relatively easily. It would take forever and you'd need a considerable technological edge over your opponents to even think about trying to take over through raw military muscle.

And that? That's not much fun except as a maybe a highly-abstracted, high-level war exercise. I'd rather play Sword of the Stars.
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