HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

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Razhul
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HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Razhul » Wed May 16, 2012 5:25 pm

Hey there,

the HEAP rounds (http://sots2.rorschach.net/HEAP_Mass_Driver) do "inverted lollipop" damage to the armor matrix, the advantage being that once your enemy has 2-3 armor layers left, the explosion will actually happen in the ship (assumption! please correct if wrong).

Now, what if I hit a ship with 1 HEAP round and do said damage, then hit it again in the armor column RIGHT NEXT to the first. The explosion would OVERLAY with the previous explosion within the armor matrix. Do I lose out on damage or does it go elsewhere on the matrix?
Mind over matter.

Svey
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Svey » Wed May 16, 2012 5:58 pm

If the entry was the next exact column, then yes, the damage pattern would overlap with the difference of being 1 space over.

Edit:
HEAP rounds are not a "damage" round in my mind unless it's an up armored DN or a LV. I usually throw them in the med turrets and use plain old heavy drivers in the large (can also reverse this) if there is nothing better as they will still do more damage than a HEAP round. Granted, the HMD may bounce, and if that's happening often enough, then I just switch all to HEAP rounds to make sure I defeat that armor asap.

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Razhul
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Razhul » Wed May 16, 2012 6:59 pm

Yes, the question is: What happens to the overlapping damage? Does it get lost or will it still somehow be applied to the armor matrix?
Mind over matter.

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Weidekuh
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Weidekuh » Wed May 16, 2012 7:11 pm

if the armor is penetrated only by the deepest damage layer, does it do full structure damage or only a % of it?
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Darloth
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Darloth » Wed May 16, 2012 8:38 pm

From some quick observation of missile patterns in the weapon test screen, I'm reasonably sure that overlapping damage panels are lost.

I'm not certain what happens when you get down to the structure, but I think that once any one square of damage hits structure, the structure takes the weapon's full structure damage amount, and full critical hit amount. I would like to be corrected if that is wrong though.

Svey
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Svey » Wed May 16, 2012 10:33 pm

As to whether that damage is lost on the overlap and how the actual structure damage is determined, I do not know. I would assume if there is armor left but structure hits are made that it would only do a percentage, as I said though, not 100% sure on that.

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Kissamies
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Kissamies » Sun May 20, 2012 7:38 pm

Hmm, I initially imagined that if the armor space in the damage pattern is already gone, the damage would just skip down to the next armor space. From what I've observed in battles I don't think this is what's happening and the overlay theory seems more likely. The pattern starts with the first intact armor space it hits and it doesn't matter if the ones under it are already gone. Not sure about this. I usually have time to sit down and watch the damage patterns only when I'm attacking a planet with no other defenses than its missiles.

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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Sun May 20, 2012 7:46 pm

with heap damage, there is still one question i cant find an answer.

if shot 1 inflict this damage

Code: Select all

------------x----------------
------------x----------------
-----------xxx--------------
---------xxxxxxx-----------
-----------xxxx-------------
-----------------------------
-----------------------------
-----------------------------


will shot 2 inflict this: (case one)

Code: Select all

------------xX----------------
------------xX----------------
-----------xxxX--------------
---------xxxxxxxX-----------
-----------xxxxX-------------
-----------------------------
-----------------------------
-----------------------------


or this? (case two)

Code: Select all


------------xX----------------
------------xX----------------
-----------xxx--------------
---------xxxxxxx-----------
-----------xxxx-------------
------------XXX-------------
----------XXXXXXX----------
------------XXXX-----------------


note there is no armor left at the spot where the heap is supposed to explode. so will it travle on through the pattern and explode with the next armor it hits, or will it explode just as if the armor would be intact?

this question in fact is of major importance.
because: if case one would be true, if one would use heap *only* and no other weapon, this would leave the enemy with 2 top armour layers mostly intact, with the majority of the damage done by the heap happening where the armour is already gone without doing further harm.

if case two would be true, heap basically would just ignore the first two layers of armour.

Svey
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Svey » Sun May 20, 2012 9:01 pm

To my knowledge, and general understanding of military weapons, HEAP is; An armor piercing round whose piercing capabilities are supplemented by an explosive compound. When the round itself strike a piece of armor, the explosive warhead goes off first, weakening the outer, toughest most layer of the armor, allowing the armor piercing round to penetrate said armor easily. The explosive damage is added because as the round itself passes through the explosion, the resulting drag coming off the armor piercing round draws some of the fiery explosive force into the breach it has now created. It's the same concept as a bunker buster, small entry point but massive damage once inside the softer bits.

Edit: As to whether or not hitting the top layer of armor next to the previous one will result in damage further down, I think we require a Dev answer on this one. Now, if that round had gone into the entry hole of another round, then yes, massive damage deeper into the armor.

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That Schmuck
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by That Schmuck » Mon May 21, 2012 1:04 pm

I've seen some weapons blow apart the armor grid where the previous round left off, so case 2 is more accurate. Any damage that penetrates the armor grid does structural damage. My search fu is weak, but I remember reading somewhere here that the amount of damage that's done is dependent on how much of the shot didn't bust the grid. I would imagine that the damage numbers given in the wiki are the full, shooting where there's no armor left at all, amounts of damage.

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MS_Cowboy
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by MS_Cowboy » Sun May 27, 2012 2:53 am

Bost case 1 and 2 are possible... and a case 3 where it blasts out an entirely new section of armor that doesn't overlap with the first. It just depends where the second shot hits. But if it does land where the first one did, its going to go right through that hole and do its damage to the deeper layers.

When hit, the game seems to choose a column at random, and then it traces that inward and applies the weapons damage grid starting at the first intact armor block it finds. I have no idea what happens to damage if some of the damage grid overlaps with already destroyed armor, but I think that damage is lost. If it is, that might open up some interesting armor options, like "whipple armor", which would start with alternating green and red armor layers, offering decent protection but at a greatly reduced cost.

There is also the sexy Karnak module, which specifically increases the chance for each shot to hit on the column that has taken the deepest damage. I suspect it's going to be the must-have thing for beams and other narrow, deep penetrators :twisted:
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Genth
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Genth » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:06 am

So if you use a combination of HD and HEAPs, that ought to be more effective, aye? As the HD will carve out a 5 deep and 4 wide hole, meaning you're 4 times as likely to hit deeper armor than with HEAP alone, and then your HEAP rounds can get through those last layers to start pounding the inner structure?

I thought the armor matrix was kinda supposed to mean that you use a bigger variety of weapon layouts.

The thing being, that even one layer of armor can be life or death for the ship, so you want to get strategies that will let you bypass as much armor as possible. Use a detonating torpedo to strip away armor, then follow up with heavy beams, stuff like that.

Sir Gaz
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Sir Gaz » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:09 pm

If it’s case 1 I think that greatly devalues the use of any weapon with a odd shaped armour pattern and even weapons with large chunking patterns can easily lose up to half their damage; and then there’s the weird patterns like the Chakkram and its siblings with their diagonal cuts or the Kelvinin torpedo with its pepper pot pattern, they just don’t make sense.

EntropyAvatar
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by EntropyAvatar » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:31 am

It's definitely case 1, at least for non-beam weapons. There is definitely wasted damage going on if you are just using HEAP against targets without too many resistance bars. Of course, weapons that do broad damage tend to lose a lot of potential to the resistance.

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Mecron
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Mecron » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:25 pm

gaz you need to take into account armor penetration.

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