HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

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vpalmer
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by vpalmer » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:57 pm

Mecron wrote:gaz you need to take into account armor penetration.

so can you comment how AP rounds actualy work in game: "case one" or "case two" as mentioned in motorbit's diagrams

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Mecron
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Mecron » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:49 pm

its case 2 if I understand the diagram right and remember this conversation properly :P Directed energy weapons power through empty spaces, kinetic/explosive effects do not pass through empty spaces once the initial contact moment is intiated...much like in real life.

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LaDoncella
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by LaDoncella » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:15 am

Mecron wrote:its case 2 if I understand the diagram right and remember this conversation properly :P Directed energy weapons power through empty spaces, kinetic/explosive effects do not pass through empty spaces once the initial contact moment is intiated...much like in real life.

it's not case 1 then? :?
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Azrael Ultima » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:45 am

Actually, it should be case one if HEAP rounds do not "power through". Case two would be what a... "HEAP Beamer" would do.


Just think about it: If you have a constant LASER beam it will just go through empty space and hit the next piece once the one before that is destroyed. If you have a time delayed explosion, it will happen at the same point whether there's armor there or not.

It's a bit silly with mesonic torpedoes since this means that they can never punch through DN armor to thick for them to directly hit the hull on their own, as all damage done is below the first line of armor.
(Oddly enough, this actually makes them more dangerous with Adamantine, as that will remove enough layers for the damage to be directly at the surface at medium and long range, instead of ineffectually hitting the same spot over and over)
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Tarrak
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Tarrak » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:12 am

Mecron wrote:its case 2 if I understand the diagram right and remember this conversation properly :P Directed energy weapons power through empty spaces, kinetic/explosive effects do not pass through empty spaces once the initial contact moment is intiated...much like in real life.

So Case 1 for HCL, and other beams. Case 2 for ballistics, missiles and torps.

Good to know. That means it is a somewhat bad idea to mix War Quoits with HEAP as the former will leave a lot of little empty spaces across a lot of the matrix which will then waste the power of the HEAP to a degree.
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Azrael Ultima » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:21 am

Case 2 for HCL, case 1 for ballistics. Case 1 was the fixed pattern, case 2 was damage pouring down to the first undamaged tile.
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Tarrak » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:12 pm

!lol Yes, a case of the Hey-I'll-reverse-the-stuff-I-know-in-my-head-for-extra-confusion'itis. !yay
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Mecron
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Mecron » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:01 pm

az, some weapons have very powerful abilities...that does NOT meant they are expected to function all by themselves....and hence are NOT silly ;) Also meson torps ignore all perma armor layers now.

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Galwail
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Galwail » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:14 pm

Azrael Ultima wrote:It's a bit silly with mesonic torpedoes since this means that they can never punch through DN armor to thick for them to directly hit the hull on their own, as all damage done is below the first line of armor.
(Oddly enough, this actually makes them more dangerous with Adamantine, as that will remove enough layers for the damage to be directly at the surface at medium and long range, instead of ineffectually hitting the same spot over and over)


If I understand it correctly, mesonic torpedoes have high armor piercing level. Those 4 armor layers won't do anything...

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chris0101
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by chris0101 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:46 pm

Galwail wrote:
Azrael Ultima wrote:It's a bit silly with mesonic torpedoes since this means that they can never punch through DN armor to thick for them to directly hit the hull on their own, as all damage done is below the first line of armor.
(Oddly enough, this actually makes them more dangerous with Adamantine, as that will remove enough layers for the damage to be directly at the surface at medium and long range, instead of ineffectually hitting the same spot over and over)


If I understand it correctly, mesonic torpedoes have high armor piercing level. Those 4 armor layers won't do anything...


They will prevent the first 4 layers - it is better than nothing. But the bulk of the damage is "deep" so yes, the bulk of the damage will get through.
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Resok » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:22 pm

He's referring to the 'Armor Piercing' property that many weapons have. In this case Meson Torpedoes have an Armor Piercing property of 10 - which essentially means they ignore 10 blue layers of armor (normally only a *max* of 5).

Essentially the Meson Torps will do their full unmitigated damage to the armor (and possibly structure after it's been depleted) regardless of blue layers.
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chris0101
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by chris0101 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:15 am

Resok wrote:He's referring to the 'Armor Piercing' property that many weapons have. In this case Meson Torpedoes have an Armor Piercing property of 10 - which essentially means they ignore 10 blue layers of armor (normally only a *max* of 5).

Essentially the Meson Torps will do their full unmitigated damage to the armor (and possibly structure after it's been depleted) regardless of blue layers.


Ah nvm - re-reading this, you are correct. Meson torpedoes do ignore armor.

Hmm ... a bit OT, but I wonder if that makes it a superior option for 4 blue armor thick LVs compared to say, enveloping AM torpedoes.
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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:50 am

against lv enveloping torpedos are always a bad choice.
the enveloping effect wont do anything, and in terms of single section damage non eveloping torpedos are superiour.

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chris0101
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by chris0101 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:55 am

motorbit wrote:against lv enveloping torpedos are always a bad choice.
the enveloping effect wont do anything, and in terms of single section damage non eveloping torpedos are superiour.


Lol brain freeze on my part.

But hmm AM torpoedo vs meson:

Advantages of AM:
- Tracking
- Target does not have to be directly in front of ship to fire
- Lethal at longer ranges
- Damage to population

Advantages of Meson
- Cannot be shot down
- Lethal at short ranges
- Ignores armor


Hmm ... for a heavily armored target; both IMO have their uses; perhaps a Meson/AM mix would be best.
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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:08 pm

so, here is the proof: its case one.

Image

what we see here is some friendly fire of medium heap drivers a dn of mine catched from a planetary attack.
there was no other force present within this battle but the planed and my all heap / gauss pd dreads.
sadly there have been quite a lot of impacts making it a bit difficult to understand the damage pattern

Image
i zoomed into the interesting part a bit.
this damage pattern was inflicted by 4 medium heap shots.

the damage was inflicted as in case one: the round applied its normal shaped damage pattern when hitting the armor

it did not pierced the first armor layer, travled through the hole the first shot punched and then exploded when hitting the next intact pice of armor (one layer in this case due to damage reduction from the 3 protective layers) (case 2)

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