HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

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Nspace
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Nspace » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:33 pm

So as that shows, the damage pattern is fixed. The damage pattern is triggered by the first intact armor block it hits and does not expand, extend, drop down or fall through empty spaces. And the blue resistance layers do not trigger the damage pattern, but they do reduce it no matter where the where the trigger point is in the armor matrix.
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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:41 pm

yeah, thats a good sum up of what we see.

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Weidekuh
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Weidekuh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:17 pm

This makes beam weapons or damage pattern in only one line much more powerful in comparison, since they do not lose overlapping damage. That's probably why i always felt that HEAP underperforms damage wise. It's just that a lot of damage is wasted during armor stripping.
beam weapons always seemed to be much stronger.

good to know for sure.
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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:23 pm

well, there are beams with damage patterns that are more then one square wide.

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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Weidekuh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:36 pm

true, bot those should punch right through armor anyway. so it doesn't matter that much.

HCL does 6 times 3 deep. (3 seconds duration, 0.5 sec pulse). There aren't many armors that are more than 18 deep. :D

Positron is 4 times 7 deep ( 2 sec). the "side" damage won't really be wasted here either.
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:00 pm

k, but comparing heavy beams with heavy drivers? i think large beams would make a better comparsion.
anyway ther will be a lot of missfire with these h-beams untill you hit a very large target - but heap only realy shine against larger, heavy armored targets too.
also, if were talking about these targets, the h-beams will loose a lot of the face melting scaryness. if i get it right, the absorbtion will reduce the damage of every tick. heap on the other hand have this 1 field wide intrusion damage thingy witch will get reduced first, leaving the largest part of the damage pattern intact. so even if they loose some of the damage to overlapping damage patterns, that should not be a big problem ingame.



that saied, the nerd in me would love to see if it where case 2... but i can see that an entirely differend damage handing just for the heap would not be practical.
(yeah, its realy only about the heap here..... see, the damage pattern, with this 1 field wide intrusion thingy, it indicates the detonation only applies after it did this piercing, with would bla bla bla [/nerdmode]

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Weidekuh
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Weidekuh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:17 pm

I was not comparing HCL to HEAP. HCL was just an example of a two wide damage pattern. anyway i remember Mecron saying somewhere that beam weapons should only get reduced the first tick by the blue armor.
why should there be a lot of missfire with h-beams? i use them very effectively against cruisers. a salvo of cutting beams and meson beams from a BB and a cruiser just pops like popcorn. :D
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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:36 pm

ah, kewl stuff :)
i had quite a long break before the all clear, when i last played fixed beams truly been fixed and did not focuss, so they could not hit cruisers very well :thumbsup:
thanks for the info on the hbeams and damage reduction. that pice of information sure is hard to find and almost impossible to lern by doing.

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feld
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by feld » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:00 pm

Nspace et al.

Either I don't understand you guys or we're missing a point here. If I understand the Kerberites' damage model correctly:

-Normal green armor degrades with use.
-Blue layers represent innate resistance, due to the sheer size of the vessel or high technology. The key feature of blue layers is that they do not degrade with use: they always apply unless they are bypassed by a weapon with the armor piercing trait.
-Weapons have damage patterns, the armor piercing trait (which allows them to ignore blue armor), and a max damage among other attributes.

I think the important thing we've not discussed much is that the fraction of weapon damage done to the internal structure is proportional to the fraction of the total damage pattern that occurs "beyond" the armor. (I think)

So the Armor Piercing AP is "armor piercing", not mostly due to possessing high levels of the "armor piercing" trait but rather because its damage pattern blossoms near the back face of the armor. This means that the AP or HEAP shell will do most of its damage to module structure if the armor is thin enough (either because it's a small ship, the armor has been cut down by previous damage, or because you're using a big gun). The HEAP round is an even better module killer (if my understanding is right) because its damage pattern is wider near backface of the armor than the APs - so if it gets through, it will do more of its total damage to target internal structure.

Additionally, if what some people seem to have reported above about entire chunks of armor falling away when undermined (I think also sometimes called "orphaned armor") then HEAP has an advantage there as well. The deep and wide damage pattern creates a chance for a few rounds to take out a very large chunk of armor. This isn't happening so it doesn't matter.

Beams, even heavy combat beams, have to repeatedly hit the same place on the armor to do internal damage because they have uniform damage patterns. And that means beams have to stay focussed on the same point over their entire firing cycle. This is not always easy to achieve. So there is a tradeoff.

Gee - Kerberos games with tradeoffs forcing the player to make choices. Shocking.

v/r
feld

edit: spelling + making clear my compliment wasn't misconstrued.
edit2: shrunk text on a not-true idea
Last edited by feld on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:06 pm

feld wrote:Nspace et al.

Either I don't understand you guys or we're missing a point here.


this.
the question of this thread was how heap would apply damage under some specific circumstances. youre right with what you wrote, but it was we wanted to find out here.

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feld
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by feld » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:11 pm

OK - check got it. I got carried away with the HCL vs. HEAP thing. Thanks for the re-direct!
v/r
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by Azrael Ultima » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:57 am

feld wrote:Additionally, if what some people seem to have reported above about entire chunks of armor falling away when undermined (I think also sometimes called "orphaned armor") then HEAP has an advantage there as well. The deep and wide damage pattern creates a chance for a few rounds to take out a very large chunk of armor.

I never heard or saw anything about this happening, and i remember Mecron saying(though a long while ago... i'm not even sure if it was before or after original release) that this kind of thing was not happening(or going to happen) in SotS2.
Might have changed since, but so far, i've no information to the contrary.
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motorbit
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by motorbit » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:20 am

i think this will happen if shots manage it to produce a pice of the armor matrix that is not connected with the rest of the matrix at any point.

edit: no, it will not happen. youre right.

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feld
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Re: HEAP and Armor matrix - how does it work?

Post by feld » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:40 am

Thanks - editted my post to eliminate potential future confusion.

v/r
feld

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