Stormers

Galactic diplomacy with extreme prejudice.
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Kris Lighthawk
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Re: Stormers

Post by Kris Lighthawk » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:49 pm

I think one of the things about stormers that people have failed to notice, is that they are a good deal more accurate than normal driver and have less chance of being deflected by armor (perhaps because this is the opposite of how the was in SotS prime)

Edit: stormers also have the exactly same track speed as mass drivers
Last edited by Kris Lighthawk on Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Razaron
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Re: Stormers

Post by Razaron » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:54 pm

Stormers and Heavy Stormers do 43% more DPS than Mass Drivers and Heavy Drivers. Neutronium Rounds adds to armor damage, although I'm not sure whether it adds to penetration depth. So, a mixture of armor stripping weapons and stormers would be good, assuming your targets have a suitable number of blue layers.

PS. Neutronium Rounds adds 50% to ballistics damage, VRF Systems adds 25% to ballistics ROF, Accelerator Amplification adds 10% to ballistics damage and Quantum Capacitors adds 35% to energy weapons rof. Bonuses are additive, not multiplicative.

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Kris Lighthawk
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Re: Stormers

Post by Kris Lighthawk » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:03 pm

Neutronium Rounds adds to armor damage, although I'm not sure whether it adds to penetration depth.

My guess would be that they add one damage to each row so it looks like this:
00011000
00111100
But that would actually double the damage against cruisers…

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Chthon
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Re: Stormers

Post by Chthon » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:20 pm

My problem is contrary to the game's description, they are actually terrible against larger slower targets. Normal stormers cannot even damage DNs, and Heavy cannot even damage LV. Even if they added one more dot of armor damage to a new layer on the bottom would help solve this without overbalancing things IMO. You could still keep Mass Drivers and Heavy Drivers around as armor stripping weapons, especially if you have AP and HEAP versions, while Stormers would actually become effective at their job.

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Weidekuh
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Re: Stormers

Post by Weidekuh » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:30 pm

Chthon wrote:The only place Stormers out perform Mass Drivers is after the armor is gone, as Stormers do 4 damage a hit to hull/internals, where Mass Drivers do 14. In theory a Stormer can do 40 max damage to a Mass Driver's 28 in the same time frame.


I repeat myself but: The blue armor layer is NEVER gone. Cruiser will ALWAYS reduce incoming damage at least by 1 layer, DN by 2 layers and LV by 3 layers. This is not counting special armor ignore weapons like AP or Chakkram.

Ok, back on topic.

Stormers don't have to be supermegaduper imba to be something i would use. The problem is that you invest research time and get a weapon that is not really stronger than the standard Mass Driver. In a MP battle when research time is so important i would never even get it. Against a cruiser it's 16 MD damage vs 10 Stormer damage. One of the advantages of the Stormer is that it's damage depth is random from 1 to 10 deep during its volley, whereas the MD is only ever 2 or 4 deep in 2 shots.


I have a question regarding Acceleration Amplification and Neutronium Rounds. How do they exactly increase the damage pattern. Because depending on this i might be persuaded that stormers are still awesome even tho i had bad results in my time using them. But it could be that it was just because i didn't have AA and NR researched back then.

Stormers do 3 damage per shot. +60% damage is an increase of 1.8 damage resulting in 4.8 damage total per Stormer bullet. The question is: Is the damage rounded up or rounded down? Where are the 1.8 damage added? There are 5 empty fields that could be filled by the damage increase.
I only know that for the missiles the Anti-Matter Warheads upgrade improves the damage pattern by +1 on every side. I'm curious how those two ballistic increases are applied to ballistic weapons.
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ProjectLevyDelta
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Re: Stormers

Post by ProjectLevyDelta » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:42 pm

Isn't that 10 stormer damage per bullet. . . lol

that seems a bit more then I remembet :lol:
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Treliant
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Re: Stormers

Post by Treliant » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:56 pm

Weidekuh Your assertion that the blue bar always subtracts from the dmg of a weapon even after the armor is gone is false i'm afraid. I just used stormers against my own dreadnought with adamantine armor (so 3 blue bars) and it was taking structure dmg like crazy once the armor matrix was gone. The blue damage reduction only acts as a decrease when dmg is applied to the armor matrix. So against structure you take the 10x4dmg per stormer volley (which is almost double what you will take from almost any other ballistics weapon)

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ProjectLevyDelta
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Re: Stormers

Post by ProjectLevyDelta » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:57 pm

you sure it didnt just get a crit hit?? :googly:
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Treliant
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Re: Stormers

Post by Treliant » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:03 pm

give it a try Levy, didn't get any crit messages and stormers actually have poor crit chances (-10% to crit chance). I had 3 Stormer turrets firing at a Tarka dread engine section with adamantium armor and it was losing ~5% structure every 8 seconds from the stormer volleys (after I cleared the armor matrix with HEAP rounds).

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Weidekuh
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Re: Stormers

Post by Weidekuh » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 pm

Well i remember several threads talking exactly about that and several people testing it. I admit that i never tested this myself.
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Itharus
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Re: Stormers

Post by Itharus » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:21 pm

I like to load out battle riders with stormers early on - it goes something like this:

18 battle riders hammer away at an enemy cruisers - for a few seconds it gets jostled around without much other effect - then it suddenly pops like an overripe zit hit by a red hot needle.

They really do seem to shred structure. I'm not a file diver, but from experience I can say that those things tear apart cruisers very well - but by themselves they will take longer than you'd suspect to strip the armor - as others have said: couple with weapons that are better at it - Emitters + Stormers are disgustingly effective together vs cruisers (emitters don't penetrate far but they penetrate widely - takes off a lot of cells). Heavy Stormers are even better at what they do than regular stormers, and can actually hurt a DN (pre-adamantine armor).

About that blue bar reducing actual damage points vs structure - man - we get this argument every couple of threads and it never seems to resolve. Anyone have a Kerberos quote about it anywhere?
Go Hiver or go home!

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Weidekuh
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Re: Stormers

Post by Weidekuh » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:21 pm

Ok run a test in my Tarka game.

Target is my DN Hunter Carrier. Gunning are 12 AM Hunters equipped with Stormers, Heavy Stormers and HEAP (strafe). HS and HEAP are inactive. Then i shot the armor away of the mission section and deactivated HS and HEAP again. kept firing with the Stormers at the armor stripped mission section.

Stormers against Dreadnought without any armor damage -> zero damage
Stormers against Dreadnought with armor stripped -> destroyed mission section. destroyed ship.

I stand corrected. This changes a lot. Stormers seem to be incredible DPS as soon as armor is gone. I wonder why they never worked for me... well it's a long time ago since i really used them.

After researching Neutronium rounds the Stormers could still not penetrate DN armor. And against a cruiser the second layer was still doing only 1 damage per shot. So the damage increase is either at the first layer or non existant.
Same with Heavy Stormers. This is kinda strange because Heavy Stormers should get an increase of 5.4 damage per round. And they still only did 4 damage per shot against a cruiser after the upgrade...

Do i have to build new ships for Neutronium Rounds to be "activated"?

EDIT: Even after a new design there was still no damage increase on any stormer or heavy stormer round.
EDIT2: Same with medium HEAP drivers. The armor damage pattern stays exactly the same after the Neutronium Rounds and Acceleration Amplification upgrade. Is this a bug or am i missing something?
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Nspace
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Re: Stormers

Post by Nspace » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:38 pm

hmmm... Reading what Mecron says here, I wonder if the damage increase is being used as .5 points instead of 50%. Maybe someone could try modding the value to 1.0 (and starting a new game/earlier save, as I'm not sure tech bonus changes are effective once the tech has been researched).
"Quando omni flunkus, mortati" - "When all else fails, play dead"
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motorbit
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Re: Stormers

Post by motorbit » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:09 am

im under the impression neutronium will only boost structural damage, but wont affect the damage pattern is the intended behaviour. the post nspace mentioned seem to mean missiles only.
in the end, most of the ballistics are real good armor strippers but leak a bit in raw damage. and just imagine the carnage if small heap drivers would get a 2 square damage pattern boost :shock:

Myrrdin
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Re: Stormers

Post by Myrrdin » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:33 pm

Yeah, my experience is that Neutronium only affects structure damage as well. Haven't really used stormers much, but I can imagine the section popping goodness resulting from firing a AA+Neutronium Heavy Stormer at a ship stripped of armor. :twisted:

Seems they definetely have a niche, even if you have to have some other weapon to strip the armor. The description could need a look over though.

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