Early Game Strategies

Tactics & After Action Reports

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ZedF
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by ZedF » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:24 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:lvl1 Hiver Science Station :
120k to build + 2*54k for modules = 228k, 6% bonus to a specific tree : you need to spend 3800k on that tree to break even

Which is less than 8 turns at 500k research per turn. Pretty decent return on investment, assuming you want to be researching stuff in that tree going forward. :) Recall that getting 500k research per turn by turn 25-50 is pretty simple.

That's a 30.4k research cost for races & governments with the base 80% research efficiency. (For example, Rapid pulse lasers costs 40k research points.)

Ok, but so what? You're going to want to get that tech at some point, right? So if you're planning to keep going in energy weapons, why wouldn't you build one or more energy weapons science stations at that point?
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:00 am

Sure. On the other hand if you only plan to research xrays and rapid pulse laser in that tree, then maybe it's not really worth bothering with, especially if you plan on getting breaktroughs... (admittedly, that's maybe a bad example, because you'll usually want to tech at least one of the energy weapons or ballistic tree, and will then usually get the corresponding pd weapon - my point is that there's a minimum investment to make in a tree that makes a science station with labs for that tree worthwhile, and I did the math to find out how big that investment is.)

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Karu
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by Karu » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:31 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:Sure. On the other hand if you only plan to research xrays and rapid pulse laser in that tree, then maybe it's not really worth bothering with, especially if you plan on getting breaktroughs... (admittedly, that's maybe a bad example, because you'll usually want to tech at least one of the energy weapons or ballistic tree, and will then usually get the corresponding pd weapon - my point is that there's a minimum investment to make in a tree that makes a science station with labs for that tree worthwhile, and I did the math to find out how big that investment is.)


If you tackle it from an economic standpoint I agree.
Still, 15% more research for your money may cut it down 2 or even 3 turns and highten the chance for earlier breakthrough due to reaching the higher % faster, giving you more techs in the same timeframe, but comes with a cost (maintainence/investment).
Alternatively you could boost to get the same result (boost gets amplified by % tech and suspect lowers the chance of accidents) but it's risky and some techs like AM you never want to boost due to high risk accidents (AM f.e. blows your homeworld inhabitantless).

Also keep in mind that not only the habitat but also the research specific modules give modifier for your government type.If you target a specific one then you can get it faster that way.


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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:19 pm

Boost is just twice as efficient as regular research and the chances of failure depend on the boost size relative to your treasury size.

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djfinex
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by djfinex » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:20 pm

Some of the points I made earlier I should clarify - keep in mind I love long games - over 100+ system maps most of the time. My early game definition is typically the first 400 turns. In Sword of the Stars I, I viewed the first 100 turns as "early game." Things have changed and this game takes a lot more management and planning, than the first - a good thing in my opinion, because I play the game because I like the challenge and the planning needed.

A defensive fleet for every system is expensive, but it would be even more expensive imho to have to rebuild assets (heaven forbid re-colonize) that could be destroyed when a system is attacked without any defenders - stations, especially upgraded ones - which is how your mid game and late game should have to maximize your benefits take money and time. If you lose a level 3-5 science station, it will not only cost money to rebuild and rebuild all the modules you have invested in, but time, a long time, because you cannot upgrade them as soon as the station is built. Think of this time as lost potential, your construction fleets (you do have more than one right...?) should be moving with your frontier for the most part building new stations rather than having to rebuild old ones.

Stations - I see no point in doing things half-way. I see the early game as your build to the mid to late game, invest early, defend your investments and then allow them to pay off for the rest of the game. I think the ideal should be to have your stations upgraded to maximize your benefits, for example, with science, I love to research everything possible, but I prioritize what I need first, so in my ideal game, near the end of the mid game, I will have one science station for every tech tree branch and most of them upgraded to max - this makes research that much faster, especially when you need it.

More points later...when I have time.
A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.
George S. Patton, US general (1885 - 1945)

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Karu
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by Karu » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:47 am

@djfinex:

You take way to long then for your early game.
Turn 250 Leviathans are out and that is - for me - late game.

As for defending stations - at boarders and +1 from boarders i understand defense fleets.
For your save core worlds ... why? Ghosty is dead by then, leaving you with randoms / GMs / VNs.

By that time you can challange the VN homeworld and kill any further incursions, pirates are a none issue (loosing 1 freighter is easly mitigated by trade stimulus and the vast amount of trade by then).
For GMs you will allways use state of the art "mobile" fleets.
I don't know any scenario in a 100+ star system map why i should defend ALL worlds with a fleet. Can you elaborate why you do it?
It's like shooting myself in the feet. And if you are that concerned (about what?!?) then build drone / Torpedo Sats and place 4 around each planet, done.
I agree on the drain of time for rebuilding. And yes, you need more then 1 construction fleet. My take on that is every 3 to 8 systems 1 const fleet - depending on race).

And lvl 5 Science (or worse, trade stations with a system only capable of 6 tradegoods, navy 5s in every system or even more then 1 max 2 diplo stations) are a huge drain on your empire without much benefit.
For example politic science station on 5 ... for that few techs that are easly grabbed at the end of midgame (T 150) with 2-3 turns, why bother?


To me your playstyle seems at worse very wasteful, or at best a very turtle slow push style of a completist.


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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by ZedF » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:20 am

While I agree that djfinex's advice wouldn't suit my playstyle, and I doubt he'd have much success in a MP venue using such a strategy, he's entitled to enjoy the game however he likes best. Since he says he likes long games, what's wrong with extending things out that far if that's what he finds fun? It's one thing to disagree with him, but try not to rain on his parade too much.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:34 am

But of course you should defend your lvl3+ stations - especially when Casper is still out there - but in the early game we're talking about you won't have many of them... Of course time to upgrade the stations is a resource too, but in the early game you're more lacking cash, and as already said, the effectiveness of the science stations goes up with your income, so it's better to focus on income first.

I haven't done the math yet, but if the research stations scale like trade stations, then the higher level ones are actually more effective, especially if you have Cerebro-Archiving.

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Karu
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by Karu » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:58 am

@Zed: I agree with you. It wasn't my intention to "rain on his parade". it seems my post came over way to aggressive. *sigh*
Sometimes it shows that english is my 2nd language :(


@Blue: I believe cost/reseach lvl 3 station are the way to go in early/mid game. The higher your income gets, the more viable the higher tier stations get. In my opinion the most limiting factor in most games is space (on small/medium size maps) so you have to upgrade to progress the %research.


In my last MP game I saw resok and nick opening very economic focused. They only go for enviromental tailoring (Tax 7 for a few turns, then back to 5) then (nearly) halting research. All the while filling up the first colo fleet and building 3-4 additional ones and colonizing like crazy. After turn 30-40 returning to researching.
As I tested it myself I came to the conclusion that it's a very potent strategy on mid to large size maps, but it opens yourself to early game aggression.



Sincerly

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:27 am

I see that strategy (most strategies, probably) being highly dependent on the faction and map layout. But, as I already said, the most important in the early game is to quickly increase your income (unless it's a duel, then you could go straight for the kill). There are several ways to do that : more planets, higher tax rate, early trade...

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djfinex
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by djfinex » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:21 pm

No one is raining on my "parade", this is simply how I play the game - which I want to remind everyone is a game - something to be enjoyed, rather than crushed or conquered by boiling it down to a spreadsheet calculation. I have enough of a challenge with what I do in real life.

As for my philosophy of building and researching over the long haul rather than crushing everything on the map in 50 turns with first tier research, well, to each their own. Good points though, and thank you for the food for thought.

As for the "in multi-player, it wouldn't work, or you would get crushed comments," well, perhaps, but perhaps I would be able to adapt as the game progresses." I would love to make you folks eat your words, but I don't really have the time to play multi-player (I think - wouldn't it take a really large block of time?). Anywho, cheers.
A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.
George S. Patton, US general (1885 - 1945)

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Mecron
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by Mecron » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:47 pm

Hang in there dj! Remember guys who brow beat you with their strategies are usually worried that they are wrong deep down ;)

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Karu
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Re: Early Game Strategies

Post by Karu » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:33 pm

Mecron wrote:Hang in there dj! Remember guys ... are usually worried that they are wrong deep down ;)


That's their secret, they are allways worried! :lol:


Sincerly

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