What are your opening builds for Liir?

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Rossinna-Sama
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What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by Rossinna-Sama » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:40 am

Just curious here. Typically I play on smaller maps so naturally weapon techs are what I aim for, but well, starting to dip into larger maps.
Please note that the following ignores trade. Trade is not something I do until turn 300+. I also close all of my systems to remove corruption spending.

So, my common sense is telling me to at least get Environmental Tailoring as my 1st tech and depending on the CH rating of the planets within range, Gravitational Adaption as well if it doesn't fail.

The real next part which I'm sort of debating with myself is: Industrial, Engineering or... Psi?
Yes, Psi.

Liir have 100% chances for Telekinesis which is a flat 10% boost to Industrial Output. The next tech (which is also 100% chance) is Micro-Telekinesis, which is a 5% research boost and 15% boost to C3 research. I don't remember which one it is, but these two also give you Hold and Repair Psi powers but don't unlock the X-module, so I'm guessing researching Empathy first to unlock that module might be worth it. (also lets you play with the tax slider more.)
Add on to this the fact that Liir have 150% bonus Psi research speed...

Then you can go to MetaKineses which allows your ships to use (I think) the Crush ability. Or alternatively the Combat Telekinesis tech which increases your defense against boarding pods and gives you TK fist. Both of these techs are also 100% chance ones. Then you switch to the other side and get Lifesense which is another 100% tech, then try for Farsense (90% for Liir) then Telepathy (another 100%). Telepathy gives 10% more research speed and 15% more research to the Psi tree. (Perhaps I should aim for this first...)
You then have a 90% chance of getting one of the most dangerous techs in the game, Coercion. (Mind control.)

In my current "default" Liir match (No mods at all, starting screen default settings, 500,000 credit, 3 planet 0 tech start) I've gotten Shields MK 1 (1st tech, was testing to see if it was worth it. Don't currently think so), Environmental Tailoring, Telekinesis and Micro Telekinesis by turn 40 (Metakineses is researching now), with 187 ships and an income of roughly 200k directly into savings every turn. (it says 187 ships, but I don't think I have that many cruisers... heh.) (Should also mention this is on the Knife map with a full 7 players, I only have 4 planets.)

Is this even a viable opening build for Liir in a longer MP match, or have I totally missed something here?
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Catfish
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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by Catfish » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:07 pm

Well, it sounds like you're doing better than me, but I always go for Environmental Tailoring, then straight for Telepathy. Like you said, telepathy gives a specific bonus to psi research, so it's then very easy to pick up TK and micro TK.

At that point, I'll usually go for laser PD and drone satellites. That way, you can build a few disposable defenses in all your systems (possibly not such a problem on very small maps) to protect against meteors and other hazards.

Then comes a choice. If serious war looks impending, I'll probably aim for battleriders. If not, this is around the time I might start thinking about investing in trade, although I tend to try and skip straight to large freighters rather than spending time building small ones.

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by Aranador » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:32 am

What ever race I play, I'll take a shot at Disruptors ASAP, and try to field disruptor torp cruisers before turn 25 so I can stop Ghost Ship. Getting into the PSi tree is next, for all the reasons stated above.

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by The_Founder » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:43 am

I usually start with 10 techs (wich guarantess FTL Economics), so I might be missing stuff I always get for free.

I got most of these information from here:
http://sots2.rorschach.net/Liir:_Gameplay

My first stop are Production Improvement Techs:
Expert Systesm, MechaEmpathy & Telekinesis. You should have decent chances at at least two of those with any faction (for liir Expert and TK). Also Orbital Foundires, if it was not among the starting techs. I leave Heavy Platforms and Mega Strip Mining for later, because of the cost.
The TK-based Research boost is an easy grab early on.

With Liir, AM and the next drive system has to be researched early. It more then doubles Strategic speed and thus range. Without it Liir ships are bascially Slugs. With it, Liir fleets travel almost was fast as humans. It also gives you an insane tradign range, comparable to humans 2nd drive.
Also Battlerider are thier "thing" and shields can keep the weak hulls allive.

Weapontech:
Liir are rather bad at MechaEmpathy tree, so a enegry based PD is a must have early on. Until you have it, green beamers and missiles on spread fire can be used against drones & swarms to some effect.

Regarding Terraforming:
Biosphere preservation is a rahter high priority for Liir, because thier Psi Powers are strong. They are also ratehr adept at it by default. You should even consider overharvesting (in addition to the normal Terraform fleets) to complete Terraforming fast and thus save it. However, such an approach will give you Authority Alligment.

Tech general:
Liir are the most awsome researchers. Even Morrigi are only 2nd comapred to them and that is before Micro-TK.

"Please note that the following ignores trade. Trade is not something I do until turn 300+."
That is something you have to unlearn immediately.
Without it you are missing about 50-75% of your income! My Trade usually outshines Tax income before turn 50 (at Taxrate 4-5). And can easily grow to twice it in magnitude. As Loa I even managed to run my entire economy on Tax 1 and Stimulus bought Trade.
With slightly lowered taxes (4) you can easily get a normal Freighter with half it's worth in stimulus, Mega wiht 3/4. With Megafreighters a Level 1 Civil Station can haul 6 goods. All it's costs is 1 Civil Station upkeep*, 3/4 of the ships normal buildprice and a bit of patience to build/replace existing Freighters on a per turn basis.
On any big map you need long term strategies. And nothing is better longterm then Trade!

*Okay, technically you have to also add the Upkeep/Cost for a naval 1 and one or more Police Cutters, but still extremely little investment for the Income you get.

Fun stuff to know:
Liir have normal Crew Contigents. However, thier ships can actually be flow by 1-3 beings!
Liir have rather good Endurance. Wich is only enforced by their reliance on energy weapones and their powerfull later Drive.
Liir can fire insane amounts of Torpedoes from their Cruisers.
Liir PD coverage is excelent.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by BlueTemplar » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:45 pm

Why is everyone so much concerned about getting industry techs early? It's not like IO is really a limiting factor in the early game...

Taxes don't affect trade stimulus. Plus if all his systems are closed (is it really worth it BTW?), I suspect he wouldn't get any stimulus freighters.

Isn't trade more of a short-term investment? New colonies take a lot of turns to be profitable...

How completing terraforming faster saves biosphere? Isn't it just proportional to the change in CH?

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by Hawawaa » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:34 pm

Empathy is a really good starting tech (150% bonus is wonderful). Sooner you grab that the sooner your empire will power up ie 100 morale and if your good at banking the sooner you get 100 econ rating and all that bonus morale to tax harder. That change to tax 6 losing morale really boosted the Liir and Morrigi. For Liir it is usually my first tech.

For FTL econ 2 choices (its not a long or short term grab but its somewhere in the middle. Depends on race)
A. Fights won't start for a long time, research this 2nd and slowly grow it. Remember it takes time for trade to become profitable and having a small empire stimulus will slow you down a little at first. But by the time the war comes you will have plenty of cash to throw fleets at your enemy and stay on offense easily.
B. Fights will start soon forget FTL Econ, come back to it once your empire is developed say turn 45-80. Once your big enough you could easy slide stimulus to 200k+ and not feel the hit. (when you start stimulus depends on how ugly the war will be) Money is better spent on research and building up fleets. Remember trade takes time to become profitable.

Grabbing Torps and or BRs early is good idea. You can field these well before your enemies have their PDs up. (rider fleet with torp command sections) Once PD is up fusion burst torps can help ya or direct fire torps. You will be back to fragile ships though since pd really diminishes tracking torps.

You could run up the shield tree, note Liir ships won't have many guns for offense but you won't die as easily.

Jumping up the warhead tree might be a good idea. Stay away and pound your enemy.

PSI + another weapon system is always fun. I guess if you have time you could grab a few PSI techs. But don't push your luck. Your default ships don't pack much heat and they break easily. So oh no Liir has lots of PSI techs (oh wait your fleet still got wrecked because you forgot other techs...) To many non combat techs can be your undoing.

Jumping to dreads once your ready is good idea. Liir dreads can walk in and command the field. Also open the door to your wonderful BCs and marines!

(derp) For small maps grab torps.

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by Resok » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:48 pm

Well a few opinions - IMO closing systems is a big hamper to your empire economically. It reduces your economic rating growth which is a major early factor for both morale boosts as well as a general boost to all colony incomes. In MP the intel points are also quite handy to accrue over time so security spending to stop corruption ends up netting you better income over the course of a game as well as a strategic asset.

Just sharing my personal experience - not saying that closed systems are completely unviable.

On a large map as Liir, early Bio tech makes a ton of sense to at least compensate for your lower pop growth. Psionics are definitely a viable solution both strategically as well as for tactical combats. Psi modules can be a huge factor on both defense and offense.

Generally empathy is one of my earliest technologies as Liir to ensure that morale is solid so I can raise up my taxes and get more out of my population. Also helps to harden your empire a lot against the morale losses from war and other factors.

I generally don't play a lot on large maps for MP so most of my advice is centered around my experiences in SP (large maps generally) and MP on small -> Medium sized maps.
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Rossinna-Sama
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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by Rossinna-Sama » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:01 am

This is a fairly old thread that I'd forgotten about, heh. This was before my BlueInstinct duel and my entry into the international SOTSverse match.

Basically I was trying to figure out if it was worth a heavy investment into Psi. I did try it, but the results were less than stellar and of course, certain opposing builds counter it hard (rushing to DNs as Solforce will utterly demolish a Liir who didn't get their BCs or BRs up) so I was hard pressed to see it really working. From what I could tell, simply getting Empathy for the morale bonus and leaving the tree for others makes the most sense.

Closing systems - I don't do that anymore. Placebo effect, while closing all your systems eliminates corruption it also reduces the taxable income, so technically one is getting less money from the closed systems even if some of it goes to pay off security.

As of how I play MP Liir now, its basically:
Empathy or Fusion torpedo (If safe, Empathy, if not, Fusion torps)
The one I missed before.
Work to Rapid fire PD Lasers, or if knowing I'll be safe for a good amount of time, the first biotech (forget its name offhand.)
The one I missed before.
Straight up the engineering tree to get DNs then off to BCs if its I'm safe, or if early combat is inevitable quick positron and heavy beams, BRs with Spinal mounts and then moving to get DNs and BCs.

BCs are typically my primary gameplan for Liir. Once those are acquired, focus is put on trying to get good weapons to put on them, defense techs (industry) is ignored for the most part apart from the one which gives strafe mounts for the ship construction reduction.
It means I don't have very good defenses, my planets ain't doing brilliant and diplomacy is a no go on my end, but I find this works very well.

As for trade - to be perfectly honest it often depends on the worlds I get. Trade cuts into the rate you produce ships, and my homeworld is often the main shipyard. If I'm cursed with a ton of smaller planets, I put trade off early on. If I find a nice system which can compete or even outdo the production of my home system, then I invest heavily into trade and even go down and get Superworld so to make my homeworld a Gemworld.
Trade is a longterm investment - if you expect to be left alone for 50\60 turns and can spare the time to research FTL economics and get the proper policing and so on techs done (as well as convoy systems if Zuul around) then its fairly important, but if you expect to get attacked hard and fast (like what often happens to me when playing Liir) then the investment in trade might wind up causing you not have enough ships and weapon techs to defend yourself.

Of course, this is all just my personal observations.
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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:25 pm

I guess that whether you play against an AI or a real player matters a lot for getting early trade (or colonizing techs) or not : it's a lot easier to hold off an AI until the trade pays off than a human player that decided to rush you...

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by The_Founder » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:13 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:Why is everyone so much concerned about getting industry techs early? It's not like IO is really a limiting factor in the early game...

More IO means:
Faster terraforming/Infrastructure build
Faster shipbuilding, even at high trade settings ( when a 8k Resources planet has over 10k IO right after being compeltely build up you know what I mean).
I am not certain, but afaik unused IO is translated to money. So more moeny as well.

BlueTemplar wrote:Isn't trade more of a short-term investment? New colonies take a lot of turns to be profitable...

Flip that around. Trade is a long term investment if I ever saw one.
You need to invest money into Civili stations & upgrades, Military Stations and Polcie cutters and then the freighters. A high Investment cost.
It takes some before you have that cost in again. And of course you cannot invest the money into other venues (Reserach, more Colonisation).
But once you do, it is free money every turn with the occasional repalcement of a Freighter. And maybe upgrading to Megafreighters/Upgradign of Civili stations as needed.

BlueTemplar wrote:How completing terraforming faster saves biosphere? Isn't it just proportional to the change in CH?

Biosphere loss is based on "turns you still had terraforming left to do".
if you need 10 turns for those 200 CH, then you pay 10 turns Development cost and loose 10 turns with of Biosphere.
If you need 5 turns, you only pay 5 turns development cost and loose 5 turns worth of Biosphere.
There is also the fact that the worse the CH, the slower grows the Civil population. And the later comes the time where the colony is "Self Sufficient".
I am not even certain if there is any Biosphere loss to Terraforming tiself, or all is based on the time you need to do the deed.

In short everyone wants to finish terraformig nas fast as affordable. It's jsut the question if you can overharvest or not.

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:24 pm

The_Founder wrote:
BlueTemplar wrote:Why is everyone so much concerned about getting industry techs early? It's not like IO is really a limiting factor in the early game...

More IO means:
Faster terraforming/Infrastructure build

Most of industry techs only affect ship IO costs.
Faster shipbuilding, even at high trade settings ( when a 8k Resources planet has over 10k IO right after being compeltely build up you know what I mean).

You won't have enough freighters in the early game to take most of your IO, and not enough money to spend on building ships with the remaining IO.
I am not certain, but afaik unused IO is translated to money. So more moeny as well.

No, it doesn't.

BlueTemplar wrote:Isn't trade more of a short-term investment? New colonies take a lot of turns to be profitable...

Flip that around. Trade is a long term investment if I ever saw one.
You need to invest money into Civili stations & upgrades, Military Stations and Polcie cutters and then the freighters. A high Investment cost.
It takes some before you have that cost in again. And of course you cannot invest the money into other venues (Reserach, more Colonisation).
But once you do, it is free money every turn with the occasional repalcement of a Freighter. And maybe upgrading to Megafreighters/Upgradign of Civili stations as needed.

Yes, but won't most colonies take even more time to pay off? Inter-province Trade starts at 27.5k per good, meaning an investment in it is paid off in only a few turns. I haven't done the math for SotS2 yet, but in SotS1 I was happy if I saw a colony that would pay for itself in under 30 turns...

BlueTemplar wrote:How completing terraforming faster saves biosphere? Isn't it just proportional to the change in CH?

Biosphere loss is based on "turns you still had terraforming left to do".
if you need 10 turns for those 200 CH, then you pay 10 turns Development cost and loose 10 turns with of Biosphere.
If you need 5 turns, you only pay 5 turns development cost and loose 5 turns worth of Biosphere.
There is also the fact that the worse the CH, the slower grows the Civil population. And the later comes the time where the colony is "Self Sufficient".
I am not even certain if there is any Biosphere loss to Terraforming tiself, or all is based on the time you need to do the deed.

In short everyone wants to finish terraformig nas fast as affordable. It's jsut the question if you can overharvest or not.

Ok, how much biosphere per turn then?
What I saw the few times I checked the numbers, is that I had about 12.4 biosphere point loss per CH moved, on different planets, and at different terraformation progress, so I'm not sure about your theory...

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by ZedF » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:12 pm

BlueTemplar wrote: Inter-province Trade starts at 27.5k per good, meaning an investment in it is paid off in only a few turns.

If you think that, you haven't paid much attention to the actual costs, as you're only considering the cost of the freighter itself. There is a heck of a lot more to it than that. It actually takes between 15-20 turns for a new trade station to pay for itself.

I haven't done the math for SotS2 yet, but in SotS1 I was happy if I saw a colony that would pay for itself in under 30 turns...

Colonies pay for themselves with more than just income over time. They also pay for themselves with refuelling and rebasing potential. This is even more important than in SotS1, and colonies tend to be able to participate in their own defense more quickly than in SotS1 as well.

Now that's not to suggest that I agree with the idea of going all-in on I/O boosting techs right off the bat. I certainly don't think this is a good idea for most races in most circumstances (Loa being the principal exception.) But as an investment, trade is not some uber-wonder-moneymaker compared to the other kinds of investments available in the game; rather, they are for the most part about comparable with one another, allowing for differences in how they operate.
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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by The_Founder » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:23 pm

Cross Provicne trade is 27.5k?
For Morrigi perhaps. All other have more around 25k for anything crossing Province border:
http://sots2.rorschach.net/Trade#Trading_within_the_player.27s_Empire

But from that you have to deduct:
The upkeep of the Freighter (5k, if not bought with stimulus)
Or you have to include that Freighters are build slower then new docks/Goods become avalible (for Stimulus), wich means you take longer to pay off the investment.
The Upkeep costs for Civili Station, Naval Base and Police Cutters.

And Amortisation is only archeived after you got enough money for:
The Cost of the Civil Station plus all Modules (Docks) and perhaps level upgrade (also ups Upkeep).
The Cost for a Naval Base.
The Cost for every Polcie Cutter
The Cost for every single Freighter (if you pay them normally or per Stimulus is not relevant)
The money you did not get for unused IO (for manualyl build Freighters)

And then there is all the other stuff you could not do because you spend money on this Project:
You could colonise a Planet less.
You could invest less money into research.

Sure, you eventually get that out again (trade will bring more money for Treasury and Research inthe long run). But until then, investing in Trade puts you at a slight disadvantage.

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:42 pm

Liir Lvl 1 trade station is only 35k + 2k/turn + 45k per additional dock and has the far from negligible benefit of protecting the Colony from obliteration by the Ghost Ship.
27.5k=25k+10% from open system
And building a naval and police cutters to protect a lvl1 trade station + a few freighters doesn't seem worth it to me anyway.
The biggest investment seems to me to be FTL economics which, if I'm not mistaken should be 1538k for Liir.

Or you have to include that Freighters are build slower then new docks/Goods become avalible (for Stimulus), wich means you take longer to pay off the investment.

I'm not considering stimulus because for most races it isn't worth really using it before you have megafreighters.

The money you did not get for unused IO (for manualyl build Freighters)

Again, unused IO isn't converted into money in SotS2.

And then there is all the other stuff you could not do because you spend money on this Project:
You could colonise a Planet less.
You could invest less money into research.

This is implied by the discussion since we're comparing payoffs.

Even for Loa, IO cost reducing techs might not be that critical in the early game, especially if you don't plan having many big fights.

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Re: What are your opening builds for Liir?

Post by Karu » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:02 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:Even for Loa, IO cost reducing techs might not be that critical in the early game, especially if you don't plan having many big fights.


I disagree on that one. Simply because the colonyship is LOST for Loa. And because of their uniqe grow-style FTL is a necessity to keep up the groth period without falling behind to hard in tech.

As for the Topic I start for Liir with Telepathy - 150% bonus + 2-3 small Techboost - in a 125% Tech/100% eco game it should be done between turn 5-10.In that time my colofleet is at CnC+3/4 Colos + 1/0 Suppy. (saving to 1mio after colo fleet done)
Then it depends on the map in which order i get these: Fusion torp, ballistic shield, PD, Drone sat + adv. Drones, FTL, Enviromatel tailoring + tech for less biosphere dmg.

A friend and i calculated that trade pays of after 30+ Turns for selfbuild freighter and Turn 45+ for stimulus freighter. (100% eco game, including upkeep and buildcosts)
It developed in a interesting form: build the first 9-12 freighter yourself, and then choose stimulus or full selfbuild.
Destroyed freighter will be rebuild from stimulus too if you choose that path.
As I hop species to often, I'm not 100% sure for the stimulus cost of a Liir-freigter but it should be at ~150k to buidl 1 at a turn.
In essence the "build" trade infrastructure will negate the stimulus and upkeep while trade growth itself.


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