The Suul'ka

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Gakl
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by Gakl » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:29 pm

The Writer2 wrote:(Also, IIRC correctly, the "screaming" in B5 was from the machine, not the person inside. Just another thing that made them polar opposites of the Vorlons, whose ships "sang" to people.)


While the ships had meatbags inside--and it's unclear based upon everything that I've seen/read, that they were indeed the Shadows themselves necessarily--my impression was that they almost always used some captured servent-race (or simply slave of an opposition younger race) and the scream was from the pain of the individual. The shadows themselves were insectoids with extremely advanced biotechnology--merged with them and their machines--cybernetic. Machine/meat distinction doesn't seem as relevant with them.

I don't think the Vorlons are opposites exactly, except in psychic ability. The shadows cause psychic pain, but it is not clear that they do this with psychic means. Anyhow, the means/ends philosophy vis a vis the younger races, ultimately made the Shadows & Vorlons more similar than disparate.

Vorlons had extremely advanced technology too, but their primary advantage was psychic power . Shadows were raw technology and strength without empathy.
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Naja
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by Naja » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:23 pm

I'm detecting a thematic contrast between "screaming" (Suul'Ka) and "singing" (Liir). Coincidence?

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wingren013
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by wingren013 » Sun May 01, 2011 12:00 am

I think that the Liir and the Suul'ka are the same species that had some sort Idealogical schism.

We already know that the Liir have made incredible leaps in technology in a very short period of time, so it is very possible that they would pose a huge threat if intent on conquering the universe.
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TheTuninator
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by TheTuninator » Sun May 01, 2011 12:44 am

wingren013 wrote:I think that the Liir and the Suul'ka are the same species that had some sort Idealogical schism.

We already know that the Liir have made incredible leaps in technology in a very short period of time, so it is very possible that they would pose a huge threat if intent on conquering the universe.


Not possible; the Suul'Ka showed up at the Liir homeworld before they developed spaceflight and enslaved them, if I recall correctly.
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wingren013
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by wingren013 » Sun May 01, 2011 1:48 am

All of the info that we have is essentially everything that Sol Force's Intelligence unit knows. I think it is safe to assume that some of their info is false.
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by TheTuninator » Sun May 01, 2011 7:59 am

wingren013 wrote:All of the info that we have is essentially everything that Sol Force's Intelligence unit knows. I think it is safe to assume that some of their info is false.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fairly certain the background knowledge of the other races was inviolable canon and not a biased perspective from SolForce's point of view?

The Liir section in the Races subforum certainly has nothing to suggest that it's from a SolForce dossier, from what I can see.

It seems rather ridiculous to suggest that the Suul'ka and the Liir are the same species given the massive disparity in tech levels between the two races.
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Gwenio
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by Gwenio » Sun May 01, 2011 1:33 pm

TheTuninator wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fairly certain the background knowledge of the other races was inviolable canon and not a biased perspective from SolForce's point of view?

The Liir section in the Races subforum certainly has nothing to suggest that it's from a SolForce dossier, from what I can see.

It seems rather ridiculous to suggest that the Suul'ka and the Liir are the same species given the massive disparity in tech levels between the two races.


The bios are from Sol Force Intel; however, that does not mean they are wrong. So far it would seem they are correct over all, just some of the particulars like the Suul'ka and Screamers being separate things.

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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by Erinys » Sun May 01, 2011 5:01 pm

TheTuninator wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fairly certain the background knowledge of the other races was inviolable canon and not a biased perspective from SolForce's point of view?


The background information is the best available information. It certainly has a SolForce bias--notice how often the slang terms for various alien races are used, or how often the descriptions appeal to second-hand testimony or archaeological evidence. You can bet that the Morrigi description of their own race does not mention obscure ships that crashed on other worlds, or corrupted legends of lesser species.

The only exception to the general SolForce bias rule are a few sentences of the human race information, which has a slight Tarka-Hiver slant as they report recent history of the species from their own perspective.

In general, what you should understand about all the race information is that it was the best information available at the time. It is certainly not inviolable. It is almost never completely wrong, but sometimes there were serious gaps in ability to communicate, especially with the Liir. Certain terms may have been misinterpreted or over-interpreted. For example, Maldonaldo reported to SolForce that the Liir had used a bio-weapon, which he assumed was a plague. But the phrase "living weapon" in Liirian may have multiple meanings...

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TheTuninator
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by TheTuninator » Sun May 01, 2011 6:40 pm

Erinys wrote: For example, Maldonaldo reported to SolForce that the Liir had used a bio-weapon, which he assumed was a plague. But the phrase "living weapon" in Liirian may have multiple meanings...

--Arinn


Good to know, thanks!

And hmmmm...very intriguing! :lol:
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cooptimo
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by cooptimo » Tue May 10, 2011 4:54 pm

My current operating theory is that the Sull'ka are a mental virus/philosiphy/mindset as opposed to a distinct species. The Sull'ka either infect, seduce or conquer target species. Perhaps some mix of those three is possible as well. So when I use the term Sull'ka in the next little bit, that's what I mean.

Supporting Evidence:

The Liir refer to others as Sull'ka when they have become selfish and unwilling to co-exist with others, regardless of species. We know Kerebos pays a lot of attention to linguistic traits like that and we know the Liir are far from stupid, so it seems there would be a significant cultural reason for using the same word.

The Morrigi have described their past experience with the Sull'ka as some kind of great shame. Getting the snot kicked out of you in a straight military fight might be "shameful" to a military oriented culture, for example the Japanese in WWII, but not for a commercially oriented one. On the other hand having a significant percentage of your own species embrace a morality or take actions that are viewed as evil, would be considered shameful. Again as an American I am not ashamed of military defeats like Custer's last stand, but I am ashamed of the genocide conducted by my government and fellow citizens against Native Americans. This may not be the most perfect analogy.

The races that have been "left alone" for the most part are the ones that are the ones with the lowest Psi ability. This would imply either a lack of interest on the part of the Sull'ka or possibly the fact that the most successful vector for the Sull'ka is telepathic in nature.

Further speculation:

The Liir were targeted by the Sull'ka because of their high psionic potential. The initial contact was probably external in nature. Let's call them "species Y". However species Y could just as easily be a different victim of the Sull'ka, a species that willingly sumbmitted to it, the originators of the Sull'ka, or perhaps species Y was some combination of species or a mix of the previous possibilities. Whatever it was the Liir successfully resisted and now thanks to Erinys' giant hint (thanks!) It seems that the resistance was Psionic in nature. At this point the disease anologies break down, so I'll call it a phage simply because it sounds cool. Oh! I would also mention a very remote chance that Species Y were Sull'ka dominated Morrigi, more on that later.

The Morrigi also encountered Species Y as well. My hunch, which is supported by far less evidence than we have for the Liir. Is that a significant percentage of the Morrigi were either tricked into or willingly embraced the Sull'ka. Thus the use of the word "shame" as opposed to "defeat" or "conquest". Again the evidence is much weaker here, but if the Morrigi lost most of their cultural identity and became part of the overall "Sull'ka" This would lead scattered holdouts to adopt the "Hide and wait till it goes away" strategy that is consistent with the way the Morrigi reappeared in local space.

Sull'ka motivations seemed to be more centered on adding Psionic species to it's fold rather than just simple economic and military domination. Humans, Hivers and Tarka were all present when the Sull'ka were present, but were by all evidence we have, ignored. The economic structure of a pan-species mental virus would look very different from a simple imperial outlook I assume.

The rebellion of the Zuul implies that this method of control and domination must have some severe limits. Why not simply infect the Zuul with the same Sull'ka mindset and make them part of the overal gestalt? Could be a lack of imagination on the part of the Sull'ka in thinking their "weapon" would be unable to evolve for some reason. Or could be that the Sull'ka couldn't infect them. No evidence available at this time.

The coming fight with the Sull'ka will not be a purely military conflict. Ships and weapons make take the most prominent role (and thus the focus of SOTS 2) But ultimately there will be philisophical and perhaps even somthing similar to religious conflict as well.

Unanswered Questions that are based on rampant speculation and therefore probably invalid or not relevant.

What role with the AI or Rebel AI factions take in this?

Do the relatively weak psionic abilities of humans cross the threshold where the Sull'ka would be more personally interested in our species?

Were the Sull'ka the result of a different species developing it on their own? Was it something that was intended to be a weapon itself that escaped confinement? Is it something from "outside" like beast from Cataclysm? Something like what nodespace is, but only malevolent in nature?

And the question asked by my fictional creation Thomas Nakamura, SolForce Naval Officer: How do we kill it?

Oh Great Gravy! I just realized I used the word Sull'ka instead of Suul'ka..... I'm a flipping moron sometimes.....

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wingren013
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by wingren013 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:10 am

wingren013 wrote:I think that the Liir and the Suul'ka are the same species that had some sort Idealogical schism.

We already know that the Liir have made incredible leaps in technology in a very short period of time, so it is very possible that they would pose a huge threat if intent on conquering the universe.


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Coyote27
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by Coyote27 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:16 am

I'd like to point out that those of us who argued that the Suul'ka were a philosophy and not a race of their own weren't exactly wrong... ;)
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Mecron
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by Mecron » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:26 pm

In the same way obi wan didn't lie ;)

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cooptimo
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Re: The Suul'ka

Post by cooptimo » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:51 am

Okay.... Obiwan didn't Lie, cause when Lucas wrote the first movie, I don't think he had worked that part of the story out yet. But the point is correct, I was still thinking "mental virus" right up until the beans were spilled. Hey when I'm wrong, I'm spectacularly wrong.

It does make a lot of sense though looking back and It really does fit all together now. Eagerly awaiting the game.

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