Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

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Civ001
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Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Civ001 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:55 pm

I am thinking of making a crossover between these two fictional settings but I need some help on what to do. I don't know the power levels of SOTS and Star Trek and I want to make a story that involves a group of Liir being placed in Star Trek before the events of the dominion war. I was thinking of putting them near the AQ or in the Romulan Nutral Zone. They are at beginning level Anti Matter tech. And I want to know how they do and what will happen if they make first contact with any of the AQ or BQ powers. Also the Liir start off with 10-20 planets. How will they do?

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MS_Cowboy
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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by MS_Cowboy » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:44 am

I'd say SotS ships would have a favorable matchup in a fight. Star Trek style photon torpedoes are just antimatter warheads, and they are supposed to be among the more powerful variety of standard weaponry in that 'verse, and we know how that matches up in SotS. SotS ships are tough as nails and armed to the teeth. Star Trek ships have comparatively few weapons, and surprisingly weak shields (how many times do you see shields take less than 20% from a single hit? Less than 80%?). Federation ships in particular have no real armor at all, pre dominion wars. Just whatever metal the hull is made of, and windows. Lots of fragile windows.

On the other hand, comparing Star Trek engines (both sublight and FTL) to SotS engines is like comparing a helicopter to a rickshaw whose wheels have been replaced with large bricks being pulled by small anemic dogs. Any run down civilian shuttle could run elaborate circles around a SotS armada, possibly blowing raspberries the whole way. Operations spanning years and decades in SotS are handled on the order of days and weeks -if not hours- in Star Trek, and ultimately that would be the deciding factor. In a war, no SotS race would stand a chance.

Luckily, Star Trek is rarely about war. But if you wanted to write something more along the lines of a peaceful, cultural intrigue first contact type of thing, I won't be much help.
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Bushan Re
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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Bushan Re » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:09 pm

The first thing you'll have to get used to is Star Trek's firepower is all over the map. In the original series the Enterprise was basically a doomsday machine almost unlike anything in all of science fiction. I mere ounce of antimatter from its stores was apparently sufficient to blast the atmosphere clean off a planet (well, half of it.)
Which doesn't make sense, of course, since an ounce would only yield about 1.22 megatons. But it was said on screen and, according to Paramount's canon policy, that makes it true.
Then, many years later in our time, and many more by Starfleet's calendar, we see it takes a small fleet of 20 ships to destroy the crust of a barren planet... in an hour. Of course then they go on to do the frist 30% with their opening volley. go figure. So yeah. Firepower is all over the place.
And so is the range on said weapons. In several TOS and TNG episodes we see phasers shooting across hundreds of thousands of kilometers and landing pinpoint accurate hits. Then an episode later we see ships intentionally flying close enough to one another that the crew can exchange vulgar gestures through the windows, in addition the vessel's standard ordinance... which frequently misses.

However, Trek does have some enormous technological advantages as well, some of which may prove to be totally insurmountable to any of the SotS races.
As my learned colleague above pointed out, SotS engines are laughably slow compared to those employed by even less developed cultures in the Trek 'verse. Much like the weapon figures, Warp Speed is completely wonky, but if I can bother you to check this here link: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor you'll see that even at it's slowest it's still a ker-jillion times faster than the fastest possible speed (in game), which is 25 light years per year.
And impulse drives are just as vastly superior, capable of achieving and maintaining high fractions of light speed while making some ridiculous maneuvers as well.
There's also replicators, transporters, tractors beams (they're better in Trek), any given ship's chief engineer, and the Particle Of The Week to contend with.

I don't suggest making your story about conflict without first acknowledging you've taken some serious artistic liberties with Liir and possible Star Trek. Pull a JJ Abrams and just rewrite everything to make it possible. Or use the classic Star Trek method and just throw continuity to the wind.
On the other hand, making the Liir a nearly helpless new species suddenly thrust into a strange new universe, but armed with strange and wondrous technologies (stutter warp and other various SotS specific technobabble) would be an interesting read, I think. It would put the Liir in an odd position of power: that of being militarily weak, but possessed of wholly different technological base the other Alpha Quadrant powers would be eager to exploit.
Last edited by Bushan Re on Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Civ001
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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Civ001 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:48 pm

So I plan to make the Liir be in the Romulan NZ and I was going to make the fanfic be about what the Federation and the Romulans are going to do with the Liir. So I would like to know what would the UFP and the Romulans think of the Liir and how do you think that they would be removed? And if the Liir turn violent what do you think would happen to both races if they attack?


Edit: Or if I make a fanfic were the Suul'Ka come in the Star Trek verse during the late 24th century how will they do?

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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Mightypeon » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:05 pm

Well, I have to say:

-Star treck tech is considerably more bonky/non consistent than SOTS tech, especially in regards to propulsion/power levels, of course one has to cut Star Treck some slack here, there will be not much consistency if you have a gazillion different authors. I also got the impression that Arinn either did significant reading on physics herself or talked a lot with somebody who did. Asuming that something akin to a nodespace exists, all SOTS modes of transportation are exotic but perhaps possible.
-SOTS ships are considerably heavier armed than Star Treck Ships when it comes to energy/space devoted to explody things. Any Races Blazer/Impactor section is an essential proclaimation of "Hello, we do not tend to **** around."
-I would suggest changing 25 light years per year to 25 light years per week for the Star Treck verse Liir, or move Star Treck warp speeds to something more realistic or do both
-I have the lingering suspicion that SOTS Humans are vastly more ruthless, pragmatic and resolute than Star Treck Verse humans. Basically, the Federation is by far "nicer" than our current gouverments, even though lethal threats, one of the largest reasons for non nice gouverments to exist, are abound in large scale quantities.
-Star Treck has very limited stuff that actually has anything to do with strategy/tactics/warfare, and can imho be abbreviated as Wild West in space (Captain Kirk) to knights in shining armour in space (next generation etc.).

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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Civ001 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:47 pm

So which race would be best in the ST universe? I also have been thinking about what would happen if the Tarkan Empire was placed in ST or discovered a special portal that allowed them to travel to the ST verse and tried to invade the AQ and BQ. The Tarkan Empire is in mid AM age and has a 350 spiral arm map. Or I just drop the same Tarkan Empire in the same universe with all their planets or ships as well.

I may make the Tarkas appear between the Federation/Klingon border. Hmm, this might be interesting. Tarkan Empire vs Klingon Empire who would win?

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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Bushan Re » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:27 pm

It's been a few days since I've had a chance to answer, so please forgive the giant omnibus of a post that follows.

Civ001 wrote:what would the UFP and the Romulans think of the Liir

The UFP would elated to suddenly have an entirely new spacefaring culture to interact with. First contact with them would probably go a lot smoother than it did with SolForce, assuming these Liir ever knew them. With the Liir's telepathic abilities the Federation's earnest desire to explore their culture and get to know them would probably go a long way to establishing friendly relations.

The Romulans adhere to some vague Nazi like master race/fatherland philosophy. Duty to the state is every and, while they don't really hate other races, they do view them as inferior and generally in the way. Whether or not a "lesser" race is conquered or exterminated is probably a matter of convenience. The Romulans, once they found out, would probably be terrified of the Liir's telepathic abilities, though. Simply put Romulans are paranoid. The Liir would represent the ultimate security threat to their empire and they'd want to get rid of it post haste.
Of course the Liir would know all this as soon as they got close enough to read any of their thoughts. Then they'd open fire. Peaceful relations between Liir and Romulans would be impossible.

Civ001 wrote:and how do you think that they would be removed?

Evacuating 10-20 worlds full of people is no easy task. Especially when their life support needs are so different. Then again, a lot of Federation capital ships are supposed to have a "Cetacean Ops" area. It's more of an in joke with the production crews, but it was mentioned on screen (though never seen) so it is canon. Apparently they use dolphins to navigate during warp travel... or something. They could ferry a lot of them away like that and it would probably be an interesting (perhaps even comical) experience for a Liir to interact with a dolphin. You might want to ask Arinn Dembo about that. I'm suddenly very curious about it myself.

Civ001 wrote:And if the Liir turn violent what do you think would happen to both races if they attack?

I think you'll have to determine how effective SotS weapons are again Star Trek stuff for yourself, but in the end the Liir would lose. Their FTL is too slow, their fleets too small, and their planets too vulnerable to orbital bombardment. If the Romulans wanted to bomb them into extinction then they'd do it. Maybe they'd have to commit a large portion of their fleet, or maybe just a handful of Warbirds, that's up to you. Whatever the case, the Liir have a precisely 0% chance of winning unless they quickly reverse engineer warp and impulse drive to achieve parity in FTL and sublight mobility.

The Federation would require some serious goading to actually attack the Liir, however. Maybe if they somehow launched a bioweapon at a Federation colony they'd do something about it, but if first contact went bad or relations soured somehow they'd probably just Leave the Liir alone and hope they can be friends later.

Civ001 wrote:Or if I make a fanfic were the Suul'Ka come in the Star Trek verse during the late 24th century how will they do?

Suul'Ka will probably fare better, what with their telekinetic spacefolding drives or something. But I'd wait for SotS 2 to come out so you can really see what they're capable of first.

Civ001 wrote:The Tarkan Empire is in mid AM age and has a 350 spiral arm map.

Starting them with antimatter is a good choice, but I'm not sure what you mean by "350 spiral arm map." While the structure of in game maps make for compelling gameplay, they have no basis in reality. Unless physics in the SotS universe is so drastically different as to alter the natural arrangement of stars in the cosmos, the Tarka would be originating from alternate Milky Way galaxy, which has somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 to 400 billion stars.

Civ001 wrote:Tarkan Empire vs Klingon Empire who would win?

The Tarka would have to overcome the same hurdle of slow FTL the Liir would, but without benefit of the Liir's engineering genius to help them. Then again they might not need it. The Liir's xenophobic tendencies would make getting along with anyone other than the Federation virtually impossible, but the Tarka are not so limited. I'm sure the Ferengi would take a keen interest in their decadent culture and the Tarkas could merely buy warp drive from them, along with any other technologies they wanted.
I think in the beginning the Klingons' would first try to conquer the Tarka, but the Federation would likely take grave issue with that. They'd either go to war over it or the Klingons would cut it out after taking a couple of planets when they realize how ornery it's making their Federation allies.
The Tarkan Empire would almost certainly buy a bunch of stuff the Ferengi and become their own super power, assuming they aren't absorbed into the Federation. Although I doubt they'd stand for that. And if they still had access to the SotS universe they'd basically be running the place soon. No one would be able to stand up to them once they'd integrated Alpha Quadrant technologies into their empire.
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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Bushan Re » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:41 am

Mightypeon wrote:SOTS ships are considerably heavier armed than Star Treck Ships when it comes to energy/space devoted to explody things. Any Races Blazer/Impactor section is an essential proclaimation of "Hello, we do not tend to **** around."

That depends on how one defines "heavily armed." Consider the mighty SolForce dreadnaught: measuring somewhere in the neighborhood of 216 meters in length. Now consider the mighty Federation Galaxy class: measuring roughly 642 meters in length. Dreadnaughts are small potatoes compared to many ships in Star Trek. Even the tiny Defiant class is around 120 meters in length, but it's tough enough to take on ships twice its size. In fact Starfleet's Sovereign class measures up rather favorably even against the new Leviathan chassis in SotS 2, being just about 10 meters shorter (I think). The Klingons, Romulans, and Dominion all produce vessels that are even larger--some quite a bit larger.
Now I know size doesn't necessarily equate to superior firepower--that's solely the domain of technology--but it is something to keep in mind. Trek ships certainly don't have the shear number of guns SotS ships do, but their methodologies are different, probably as a result of technical limitations. SotS ships rely on massed gunfire from numerous turrets, while Trek ships rely on a few powerful weapons that either have wide firing arcs or are not bound to a fixed emplacement as we understand them. Phaser Rings, for example.

Mightypeon wrote:Star Treck has very limited stuff that actually has anything to do with strategy/tactics/warfare, and can imho be abbreviated as Wild West in space (Captain Kirk) to knights in shining armour in space (next generation etc.).

Oh I beg to differ sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoIFUJxJwcQ
While I doubt ships are ever concentrated in such numbers during times of peace, when it comes time to wage war "properly" the Alpha Quadrant powers mean business.
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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Mightypeon » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:00 pm

For a battle involving one half of the galaxy I still feel it to be kind of "tame".
Also, does the Federation or even the Klingons display as much innovation in blowing up things as SOTS verse does?
Lancers? Cutting Beams? Impactors? Complex Ordnance Drivers? Carriers? Node Cannons? Meson Beams? Pulsed Gravition Beams?
If a technology exists, in the SOTS verse people tried to kill something with it. Which, imho, is a realistic assumption.

Star Treck on the other hand has huge glaring errors in how they are not using their technology. Why is nobody using transporters to teleport Nukes?
Did they truely consider the effects of Replicators in a military setting (which, basically, means that a Solar Array, and a Replicator is enough to outfit an army)? Why are Tractor beams not used to make enemy ships colide with each other (something you can actually do in SOTS)? Anyway, Star Treck is post scarcity, which is partly another genre...

Of course, SOTS also makes use of the "rule of cool", "realistically", Space Battle would be akin to U-Boat combat over really long distances, and there would likely be much less weapon choices that would also be much less balanced.

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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Bushan Re » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:33 am

Mightypeon wrote:For a battle involving one half of the galaxy I still feel it to be kind of "tame".

There's no debating it was an important battle, but in terms of size and numbers it apparently wasn't too amazing. Sisko referred to that vast armada during its planning phase as a "task force comprised of elements of the Second, Fifth, and Ninth Fleets." So apparently it wasn't even a proper "fleet." That is assuming "task force" and "fleet" still adhere to their contemporary definitions in regard to naval unit organization and haven't become interchangeable by the 24th century.
And it's worth pointing out that only the Federation, Dominion, and to a lesser degree, Cardassians were there in any significant numbers. The Klingons appeared to send only a token number of ships near the end, while the Romulans and every other medium and minor power were absent.
But all of this is beside the real point I was making when I brought up the fleet action: The major powers of Star Trek do know how to wage organized fleet based warfare and have a whole lot of ships to do it with.
But I also think you are half right. During times of peace there don't appear to be any such huge gatherings of starships. If the Alpha Quadrant is faced with a sudden massive attack they all seem pretty unprepared to deal with it. Hence why a lone Borg Cube can make it Earth without being blasted into fine debris by a wall of 800 ships.

Mightypeon wrote:Also, does the Federation or even the Klingons display as much innovation in blowing up things as SOTS verse does?
Lancers? Cutting Beams? Impactors? Complex Ordnance Drivers? Carriers? Node Cannons? Meson Beams? Pulsed Gravition Beams?
If a technology exists, in the SOTS verse people tried to kill something with it. Which, imho, is a realistic assumption.

While I could and would enjoy answer these questions they all seem geared toward a VS. debate type thing, which I would certainly enjoy pursuing, but I think they are off topic for this specific thread. Looking back at my previous post I realize I had already begun to go down that path and I should really cut it out. I'll try to in the future.

Mightypeon wrote:Star Treck on the other hand has huge glaring errors in how they are not using their technology.

Ha ha. This I (and every other Trek fan) can certainly agree with.

Mightypeon wrote:Why is nobody using transporters to teleport Nukes?

Transporters cannot be used while a ship's shields are up and there are a numerous technologies that exist to jam their signals. It's also supposed to be pretty difficult to transport aboard an object that's moving erratically, though that seems to change by the episode.
Basically you can chalk this one up to writing. Beaming a torpedo onto the enemy's bridge is a great way to win a fight, but doesn't make good TV, thus you don't see it done on screen even when it would be easy. How this is rationalized in universe... I have no idea.

Mightypeon wrote:Did they truely consider the effects of Replicators in a military setting (which, basically, means that a Solar Array, and a Replicator is enough to outfit an army)?

Replciators actually require staggering amounts of energy to function. So much so, that each time they are used they draw power from the warp core. In fact it would be better to think of a replicator as a "transmuter." Every time one is used they convert and equivalent mass of antimatter from the ship's stores into whatever object is ordered. It would probably take millennia for any reasonably sized solar array to store enough power to provide a single cup of coffee.
It takes just shy of 90 quadrillion watts to replicate a single gram of matter.

Mightypeon wrote:Why are Tractor beams not used to make enemy ships collide with each other (something you can actually do in SOTS)?

Well they fill different roles in the two universes. SotS tractor beams are designed precisely for throwing ships around. They grab hold for a few seconds and then they have to shut down. Trek tractor beams are designed for towing objects or ships no longer able to move under their own power. You switch them on and they stay on for as long as you've got power.
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Civ001
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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Civ001 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:28 am

So how would SOTS races do if they were in the TOS era of Star Trek instead of the 24th century ST?

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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Marakis » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:06 pm

What about when you bring comparisons of the massive Leviathans into the fray? How big are they in comparison to say a Galaxy Class?

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Re: Sword of the Stars vs Star Trek

Post by Starknight » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:24 am

Bushan Re wrote:
Mightypeon wrote:Star Treck on the other hand has huge glaring errors in how they are not using their technology.

Ha ha. This I (and every other Trek fan) can certainly agree with.

Mightypeon wrote:Why is nobody using transporters to teleport Nukes?

Transporters cannot be used while a ship's shields are up and there are a numerous technologies that exist to jam their signals. It's also supposed to be pretty difficult to transport aboard an object that's moving erratically, though that seems to change by the episode.
Basically you can chalk this one up to writing. Beaming a torpedo onto the enemy's bridge is a great way to win a fight, but doesn't make good TV, thus you don't see it done on screen even when it would be easy. How this is rationalized in universe... I have no idea.


Ships in Star Trek have essentially two lines of defense against weapons, but both are aspects of the same technology: deflector shields, which were originally just a navigation aid to keep ships travelling at high-fractional-c velocities from being hulled by micrometorites. The standard 'shields' everyone knows about, but ships also have 'defense fields' (or 'skin grids') which are energized in combat to keep the hull together under weapons fire. The skin grid is just as effective in stopping transporters as shields.
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