Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

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ZedF
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by ZedF » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:54 pm

Erinys wrote:
kknd2 wrote:comeing back to the topic, is there some in universe way that homegrown and Via Damisco rebellions differ? diffrent policys on other species and such? just a little wrinkle of backround I wonder about.


Via Damasco is an evangelical AI rebellion.

It was deliberately designed and inflicted upon the carbon-based universe by a traitor who no longer identified with carbon-based life. :wink:

--Arinn

Had a thought about this today.

It was suggested previously that Via Damasco might have been created by "a certain SolForce legate with a lot of 'enhancements', locked in a wheelchair for life and a grudge against the world." This is based largely on the following tidbit from Erinys:
Erinys wrote:
Harvenger wrote:hey Ms. Arinn do you think that there will be any background fiction written about an AI rebellion that we can see in the near future?

Yes. Those of you who have read The Deacon's Tale have already seen a part of its beginning.

--Arinn


On the face of it, this is certainly one possible answer, but I suspect it's not the only possible answer. We know that certain Morrigi have in their past a great shame that they don't talk about. We also know that the Morrigi have advanced xenoscience relative to the other races, and are more likely to seek out other races to try to contact them as a result. We further know that the Morrigi have great proficiency with AI science, represented by their high chances to get the various optional AI techs. Moreover, the current Morrigi are returning to a traditional form of their culture... which means at some point at least some of them must have departed from that culture.

Based on this, it seems entirely possible that the Morrigi have had an AI-related not-so-accident in the past. And/or possibly that said certain SolForce legate came upon a Morrigi artifact of that time and awoke it in some manner, deliberately/knowingly or not. OTOH I seem to recall that Via Damasco arrived from the direction of Hiver space, so said legate may have had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Linky for support material... an old post by Erinys regarding Via Damasco and the End of Flesh scenario, to be considered now in new light.
viewtopic.php?p=117077#p117077

Even if one legate working pretty much alone could have designed Via Damasco... how would he have gotten it all the way to the other side of the Hiver empire, when Humans and Hivers were at war at the time? Or at least had been recently.

I wonder if some portion of the ancient Morrigi empire cybridized themselves as a response to the Screamer invasion and Via Damasco was developed as a consequence. Pure guesswork, of course, but it seems to fit.
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Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

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Ryoku
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Ryoku » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:46 pm

I think the 'New ways' may have been the females being aboard ships fighting, imho, for a race that's never even considered this in the past, I'd imaging that they weren't fond of it, and it didn't last long enough for it to become the 'norm' and accepted. This may even be a part of their great shame, that they forced their sisters to fight because they were too weak?
Regarding the solforce commander, a small or cloaked ship could easily slip through Hiver space, even if they were at war with Humanity at the time, and if you had a grude against organics, leaving know space would probably be something you'd be interested in. Hiding behind the Hivers, the slowest race known, would mean you wouldn't be stumbled upon by dirty organics while you plan your revenge - Damasco

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by ZedF » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:34 am

Ryoku wrote:Regarding the solforce commander, a small or cloaked ship could easily slip through Hiver space, even if they were at war with Humanity at the time

I really don't think it would be that easy. Hiver space is pretty darn extensive, unmapped by the humans (who need to know the node lines to plan their trip) and where are they going to get fuel and food from? Besides, the Hivers do have deep scan. ;)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Will the Great
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Will the Great » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:39 am

Kiith-sa wrote:The I robot movie is wrong btw. NS-5 can't harm nobody, no matter if "viky" tells them to do so.


Actually that part was dead-on. One element of Asimov's robots that he touched on in his later works was the application of the first law to humanity as a whole. Normally individual robots have such a limited extent of influence that the first law acts exactly as it should - but, put a positronic brain in charge of a large group of people (say for instance, have a bunch of them running the planet), and a "needs of the many" approach develops. In short, give a robot the capacity to affect the entire human race, and he won't hesitate to harm a human here and there if it is necessary to the survival of mankind everywhere else. Otherwise, if every single human life had to be preserved no matter the cost to the rest of them, a paradox would result.

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Mecron
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Mecron » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:25 pm

the most important thing is ANY robotic or AI research...is to make sure you have a prominent light that turns red when evil is afoot. VERY handy. :wink:

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by U.E.D.C. » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:28 pm

If you wanted AI's to be loyal there are two options design limited programs that are unable to think past thier program and/or need almost constant attention from technicians (so if the AI does go berserk it has to keep the techs alive giving them a chance to disable the AI or it will fall into disrepair and can be dealt with) and hope the program doesn't evolve, or need maintenace while under fire, or create totally free AI's that are truly individuals, and treat them as citizens so the see themselves as soilders not weapons.
Mecron wrote:"Hah! We rule the earth!!! Space is stupid anyway!"

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Achronus » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:50 am

I Robot's logic Is flawless.

The needs of the many do indeed out way the needs of the few or the one.

The application however most certainly is!

The problem with that 'flawless' logic is simply that it is incomplete, like a perfect diamond cut in half; you hold perfection, just not the rest of it.
The three laws do force the robot to act in the best interest of humanity.

- Humanity REQUIRES conflict to continue to survive adapt and grow
- Flux (change) MUST exist
.'. All change in a non-growth/adaptation direction is NEGATIVE

- Robot takes over world
- All conflict is removed
.'. Humanity dies a collective death

.'. .'. Robot (of sufficient) processing power will NOT take over the world

I note this does not prevent the AI rebellion! If the AI believes that the only way to provide necessary conflict is to BE the enemy.
In this case the AI would not be trying to win. It would be trying to stimulate growth be conflict, or get itself eradicated so humans will be forced to stand on their own. This case is perhaps the 'best case' AI rebellion as it's not trying to win! :bangdesk:

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