Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

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Mecron
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Mecron » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:07 pm

Yeah...I fracking asked them..right after I asked him to please stop trying to have sex with the large boulder because he was going to hurt his thingy and I really didnt need to deal with that in the rain, at 5 celcius at 3000 meters and with a 3 hour horseback ride back home. :roll:

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Space Voyager » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:27 am

Maybe you're just talking about wrong animal?

Primates, marine mammals and even some birds (crow etc.) have been found to recognize themselves in the mirror!!! If you know it is you, than you have real self-awareness, which is a major part of being sentient in my book.
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Slasher » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:39 am

Are you sure you communicated the question in a manner he could understand?
Asking a question in Swahili to someone who doesn't speak it isn't exactly a fair test of intelligence, after all...
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Mecron » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:23 pm

slasher...get...out...of...the...house...sometimes! You as well, SV. This internet land of pure intellect and zero experience tends to make these conversations way longer and pretentious than they should be :lol:

For instance...the two of you are so quick to leap onto the intellectual back that NEITHER of you stopped for a moment to consider the intellect required to try and have sex with rocks to the physical detriment of the required organ when plenty of perfectly viable other cows, of either sex, (to head the NEXT pretentious comment off at the pass) we available in abundance.

No if EITHER of you had, for a moment, revealed any relationship with cows other than seeing bits of them wrapped in plastic at the store and had come up with "I don't know, in my experience I have found them to actually be quite intellectual and responsive." I may have thought you were a lil crazy, but still I would have been forced to say "Fair play...maybe I just only knew brain dead cows". But no...its the internet. And the real world just doesn't Wiki up conveniently enough. :P

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by kknd2 » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:45 pm

Mecron wrote:slasher...get...out...of...the...house...sometimes! You as well, SV. This internet land of pure intellect and zero experience tends to make these conversations way longer and pretentious than they should be :lol:

For instance...the two of you are so quick to leap onto the intellectual back that NEITHER of you stopped for a moment to consider the intellect required to try and have sex with rocks to the physical detriment of the required organ when plenty of perfectly viable other cows, of either sex, (to head the NEXT pretentious comment off at the pass) we available in abundance.

No if EITHER of you had, for a moment, revealed any relationship with cows other than seeing bits of them wrapped in plastic at the store and had come up with "I don't know, in my experience I have found them to actually be quite intellectual and responsive." I may have thought you were a lil crazy, but still I would have been forced to say "Fair play...maybe I just only knew brain dead cows". But no...its the internet. And the real world just doesn't Wiki up conveniently enough. :P


and thus the cows are delt with adroitly. now about those AI's...
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While they argue about it, the Zuul comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - KKND2

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by martinl » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:38 am

kknd2 wrote:and thus the cows are delt with adroitly. now about those AI's...


Wait, aren't we talking about Artificial Cowtelligence?
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Slasher » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:42 am

Who said I've only ever seen cows in the form of steaks or hamburgers?
I could go on and list a long number of ways I've been around cows and other farm animals. Hell, I grew up in a village surrounded by farms, live less than 500 meters from the nearest sheep pasture that I regularly walk through (another 1500 for the nearest cow pasture) and my sister lives on a diary farm in Norway...

As for the bulls sexual preferences, just look at the kind of depravity humans regularly enjoy...

But arguing if a cow is as smart as a human is really bessides the point I was trying to make. The brain of a cow is still infinetly more complex than the all the computers of an aircraft carrier or robotic car assemblyline, no? Cows can make complex decisions, learn, recognise complex patterns and many other functions AI's will need. But they can still be controlled, no? No big cow rebellions where they throw off the yoke of their oppressors in a bloody revolution, not to my knowlege anyway...
This all comes back to what I said about being smarter than they need to be to preform their job...
The problem is not making things to serve us. Its making them smarter than they have to be, giving them power, control over industrial production, our lives and the ability to evolve beyond their original purposes... Mostly the last one though...

For example, does the AI thats keeping a factory really NEED to be truely sentient? Or just smart enough to keep the productionline running at optimum effeciency, with little interest or ability to learn, comprehend or understand stuff thats happening outside that factory.
The same goes for the AI controling a warship. Does it really need strategic decision making abilities and/or any kind of ability or interest in anything by following its orders? If anything, I'd expect the decision making ability to be little smarter than a smart dog. It can think in terms of tactical plans, ship manuvers and weapons fire, while following its orders to the letter. It doesn't need the ability to plan an intire strategic campaign, thats what HQ is for and we wouldn't want the top brass to feel useless do we? Neither does it need any kind of interest in civilian affairs on the planets bellow it nor political affairs of state. So long as it can make a tactical plan that can beat an organic intelligence and follow through on it, its smart enough.
The trick is, smart in one specialised area of expertise, doesn't necessarily mean it has to be smart in all the other areas it doesn't need.
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Space Voyager » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:02 pm

Mecron wrote:No if EITHER of you had, for a moment, revealed any relationship with cows other than seeing bits of them wrapped in plastic at the store and had come up with "I don't know, in my experience I have found them to actually be quite intellectual and responsive."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:

However well put, I'm convinced I've had much more experience with cows than you. We don't have megacities in Slovenia so you get to see the countryside pretty often. Don't even try to compare a typical US city boy that never saw anything other than the city to anybody in Slovenia. ANYbody. Also my grandmother had cows, my neighbours had 30+ cows etc.. I've seen all the cows I needed to. And since I do like to hike in the mountains I'm sure I'll meet plenty more of them.

That said, cows are utterly stupid. Swahili or Cowhili. That is why I proposed other animals as a case for intelligence in the animal world. They do make a HUGELY better case.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Mecron » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:52 pm

"seeing" is a WHOLE lot different from "working with"...and milk cows are like genius Dalai Lamas compared to mountain cattle. :lol:

And really slasher...a)figure out when someone is being slightly facetious and b) take into account that some of us were being intellectually pretentious when you were still a zygote. Done the whole "taking things waaaay to seriously" thing long ago. I have the T-shirt even.

Splitting hairs to take some sort of intellectual high ground when really, the nature of slavery has more than enough real meat to spend years talking about, is somewhat tedious. A thinking being is NOT a bloody cow...get used to it. Case might be made for a dolphin or even an elephant. A case might be made to widen the scale to take into account the mental age of humans. IE- And what point do you take into account a creature that has the same self awareness of a human of mental age of 2 or 3. All sorts of interesting points can be made...but being snippy about a cow joke is NOT one of them.



ps--And SV...I didn't grow up in a "mega city"...I grew up on a ranch half the size of belgium 500 km away from the nearest thing that could be called a city. I spent many years running, handling and cursing cows directly...usually on horseback. So unless you have had to hold a steer while someone de-nuts them and they crap all over everything withing 5 sq meters...I call "WIN" :thumbsup:

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by martinl » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:35 am

Mecron wrote:So unless you have had to hold a steer while someone de-nuts them and they crap all over everything withing 5 sq meters...I call "WIN" :thumbsup:


At what point did this go so twisted that the guy most covered in Cow Poo wins? :shock:

By personal experience, the domestic pig is pretty darn smart, easily dog or cat level. Unfortunately, bacon is very, very, very good.

BTW, Mecron, don't underestimate Slasher. If getting covered in cow poo is what it takes to make his point, well, he's a very passionate debater...
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Space Voyager » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:29 am

martinl wrote:At what point did this go so twisted that the guy most covered in Cow Poo wins? :shock:

By personal experience, the domestic pig is pretty darn smart, easily dog or cat level. Unfortunately, bacon is very, very, very good.

BTW, Mecron, don't underestimate Slasher. If getting covered in cow poo is what it takes to make his point, well, he's a very passionate debater...

:lol: Phenomenal! And yes, the taste of bacon suppresses most of my respect for intelligence. :oops:

@Mecron: I stand corrected. Again. :x
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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by kknd2 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:05 am

Slasher wrote:...The brain of a cow is still infinetly more complex than the all the computers of an aircraft carrier or robotic car assemblyline, no? Cows can make complex decisions, learn, recognise complex patterns and many other functions AI's will need. But they can still be controlled, no? No big cow rebellions where they throw off the yoke of their oppressors in a bloody revolution, not to my knowlege anyway...
This all comes back to what I said about being smarter than they need to be to preform their job...
The problem is not making things to serve us. Its making them smarter than they have to be, giving them power, control over industrial production, our lives and the ability to evolve beyond their original purposes... Mostly the last one though...

For example, does the AI thats keeping a factory really NEED to be truely sentient? Or just smart enough to keep the productionline running at optimum effeciency, with little interest or ability to learn, comprehend or understand stuff thats happening outside that factory.
The same goes for the AI controling a warship. Does it really need strategic decision making abilities and/or any kind of ability or interest in anything by following its orders? If anything, I'd expect the decision making ability to be little smarter than a smart dog. It can think in terms of tactical plans, ship manuvers and weapons fire, while following its orders to the letter. It doesn't need the ability to plan an intire strategic campaign, thats what HQ is for and we wouldn't want the top brass to feel useless do we? Neither does it need any kind of interest in civilian affairs on the planets bellow it nor political affairs of state. So long as it can make a tactical plan that can beat an organic intelligence and follow through on it, its smart enough.
The trick is, smart in one specialised area of expertise, doesn't necessarily mean it has to be smart in all the other areas it doesn't need.


ok, so getting back to AI's, I think the probly likely stems in , lets call the company something anon, like MacroHard, and say they make 1 base line model AI for most applications. Now why are they going to actually do the work to make a dedicated hardwired factory AI when they can just let their general function AI learn it in about a day and make a sale at lower cost? so it might be more then needed, what does that matter next to the bottom line? Thats just one example of the problem, Its quite possable AI Slavery could also be renamed "AI Labotomy" and be the same. somehow I think without the technical details we cant know we have no real say in it. Also theres the issue of AI being a Sky Net style Software packadge rather then a hardware on site model. since we face what seems like a single AI rather then a civilization of them, it seems to me it matters more what our management AI is doing/able to do, then what a given Factory's AI is.

Slasher, your points on making a safe AI are quite relevent, but we have no way to point this out to the people who are actually making the AI in question here, much less placing them in the posistion to suceed in a break away attempt.
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The Hiver says the glass is half empty.
While they argue about it, the Zuul comes along, drinks what's left, and removes all doubt. - KKND2

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Mecron » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:36 pm

KKND makes an excellent point. Having been an AI major...I can tell you that the difference you are wrasslin with is the difference between "Expert Systems", of which we have already of varying use and complexity, and fully self aware AI, which for most tasks would be like shooting a butterfly with a shotgun.

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by Erinys » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:38 am

Slasher wrote:For example, does the AI thats keeping a factory really NEED to be truely sentient?


Your point is well-taken, and this why the dangerous times for dealing with AI's in SotS--the times when you are most likely to trigger a catastrophe--are not when you are implementing a well-developed tech into your industries and military apps, but when you are experimenting and developing in the laboratory.

When you have your best and brightest working day and night, poking and prodding and trying to soup up machine intelligence to its utmost...that's the one time that you could possibly, accidentally imbue your mechanical serfs with an inconvenient Will to Power. :wink:

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Re: Breakin the laws or how did they AI rebel?

Post by aidan » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:50 am

*alarm system blares in the bowels of a SolForce military facility*

"ALERT. ALERT. Subject XP-3590 Advanced Broadside Welding Program has obtained a copy of Thus Spoke Zartathustra. I repeat, the machines have discovered Nietzche. This is not a drill, this is not a drill. ALERT. ALERT. Research Station Alpha-Block-9 quarantined."

"How many times do we have to tell the researchers to leave their damn summer reading at home? This is the 3rd AI strain we've lost this quarter!"
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