Battle Riders in English

Bringing the text of SotS2 up to date for Russian and German players as well as expanding into other languages.

Moderators: Eleahen, castewarkp, motorbit, kenshiro

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While this project lives or dies by the exceptional efforts of poly-lingual fans, there is the potential for debate. The main things to remember is that bad Russian/German is better than nothing at all, so while we respect that there are various and subtle options for certain words and concepts, please keep the debate here (not in the public docs), allow Kerberos and super-user mods to make final rulings, and regardless if your suggestions are used, your input was invaluable and you helped make it happen.
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Eleahen
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Battle Riders in English

Post by Eleahen » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:21 pm

A question to english-speaking players:

We have a slight problem translating Battle Riders. To our eyes and ears it seems a bit too odd when we try literal approach and we don't seem to have a name among military terms as flexible as rider is (so in last iteration they were called Battle Destroyers).
Our question is:

Battle Riders. How exotic or possibly unfitting did it sound to you when you first heard it?

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Hari Seldon » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:43 pm

Well Battle Riders came from the science fiction of CJ Cherryh's "Riders" and Traveller's "Battle Riders"

I suggest that you look at the Traveller RPG books that were translated from English and see what they called Battle Riders.

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Eleahen
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Eleahen » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:25 pm

There seem to be no translated materials on Traveller, and believe me, I looked.

Oh , I didn't know about it being used in Cherryh's works. Could you point to exact books?

Ixal
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Ixal » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:01 am

Actually the Mongoose Traveller books are translated and there is a small mention of Battle Riders at the beginning of the Captial Ship section of Book 2 High Guard which is available in German.
Now if I only knew someone who had that...

I looked up CJ Cherryh's books on Wikipedia and found nothing useful. The only book with "Rider" in the title deals with actual riders on horse (things).

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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Azrael Ultima » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:48 am

German, yes. But Eleahen is talking about russian.
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Rossinna-Sama » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:53 am

Ixal wrote:The only book with "Rider" in the title deals with actual riders on horse (things).


Isn't that what rider is?

Rider = Mounted.

Motorcycle Rider = Mounted Biker.

The word BattleRider seems fine to me as an English speaker due to that, as it implies something ready for battle is riding in\on the carrier.

"Timmy, do you want to ride your bike to school today, dearest?"
"Timmy, want to mount your bike and head to school?"

What word do you typically use for people riding an object?

All I could think of is "Mounted Destroyer", if Battleriders sounds too out of place.
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Azrael Ultima » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:15 pm

Works in english, but doesn't quite have the same connotations in german and russian.

That's pretty much where the problem is coming from.
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Eleahen
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Eleahen » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:43 pm

Azrael Ultima wrote:Works in english, but doesn't quite have the same connotations in german and russian.

That's pretty much where the problem is coming from.

Exactly.

And I know one translation guideline that says something like: "Use authors language. If he uses archaic words, use archaic words. If he uses complex sentences, add that complexity." Etc.

So I'm trying to understand should we stay with somewhat exotic name or choose something simple instead.

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Hari Seldon » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:56 pm

CJ Cherryh uses Rider for Heavy Time and the other books in the Paul Dekker series. Paul becomes a Rider prototype test pilot.

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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by motorbit » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:12 pm

we pretty much have the same problem with the german translation and discussing the problem at the moment.
tough we do not have a final solution yet, its pretty clear we will not go with a direct translation. though im all pro doing the translation in the spirit the original is written, somethimes it just doesnt work out, and then i tend to prefer a translation that is pleasant to use.
escort ships and fighters are the suggestions we have so far.

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Eleahen
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Eleahen » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:31 pm

Hari Seldon wrote:CJ Cherryh uses Rider for Heavy Time and the other books in the Paul Dekker series. Paul becomes a Rider prototype test pilot.

Hmm. Thanks! Will try to track it down.

motorbit wrote:we pretty much have the same problem with the german translation and discussing the problem at the moment.
tough we do not have a final solution yet, its pretty clear we will not go with a direct translation. though im all pro doing the translation in the spirit the original is written, somethimes it just doesnt work out, and then i tend to prefer a translation that is pleasant to use.
escort ships and fighters are the suggestions we have so far.

I hear you :)

Ixal
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Translation issue: Battle Riders / Ship types

Post by Ixal » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:23 pm

Coming from the German translation project we have quite some problem with finding a good translation for battle riders and the different ship types and I can imagine that this will also be a problem in other languages. So imo its better to discuss this in a separate thread to free the language specific ones.

To explain the situation for the German translation, the literal translation of "Battle Rider" would be "Kampf-Reiter" (Normals a single word, I only split it up for clarification for non German speakers). In English "rider" is more universal "being carried by something" while in German Reiter is much more closely linked to riding on horseback. So it does sound rather strange.
Simply the battle riders ship type names also proves problematic as there are not that many in German which would fit (also leaves the question of how to name the technology).

Cruisers can be translated literally into Kreuzer
Dreadnoughts get problematic as it is more of a name than a ship type and there is no corresponding type in German. The one which would come closest would be "Schlachtschiff". This is also the literal translation of "Battleship", the Liir big Battle Rider.
The other battle rider, Battlecruiser, can be translated as Schlachtkreuzer.

In German there are also Panzer-kreuzer (again, words pulled apart for the benefit for people not speaking German). In English that would be pocket battleships. Sadly "Panzer" also means armor (and also tank) so Panzerkreuzer might clash with having a cruiser with the armor module on.

Leviathan does not pose a problem as this is the name of a mythological beast, so every language should already have its own word for it.

One idea I and some others have (but it is by no means universally agreed upon) is to replace Battle Riders with the translation of Gunboats. The technology itself could be named "Begleitschiffe" (=Escort ships). SO in the end it would look like this:

Cruiser - Kreuzer
Dreadnought - Dreadnought
Leviathan - Leviathan (can also be written without the "h")
Battle Rider - Kanonenboot
Battlecruiser - Schlachtkreuzer
Battleship - Schlachtschiff
Battle Rider (tech tree) - Begleitschiffe

Again, this is just an idea and not finalized.
Do other languages face similar issues with those words and if yes what are your solutions for them?

Ixal
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Re: Battle Riders in English

Post by Ixal » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:45 pm

Rossinna-Sama wrote:
Ixal wrote:The only book with "Rider" in the title deals with actual riders on horse (things).


Isn't that what rider is?

Rider = Mounted.

Motorcycle Rider = Mounted Biker.

The word BattleRider seems fine to me as an English speaker due to that, as it implies something ready for battle is riding in\on the carrier.

"Timmy, do you want to ride your bike to school today, dearest?"
"Timmy, want to mount your bike and head to school?"

What word do you typically use for people riding an object?

All I could think of is "Mounted Destroyer", if Battleriders sounds too out of place.


In German the only things which are ridden are horses and other animals. Vehicles like motorcycles are driven. So the term rider and its translation heavily implies riding an animal which doesn't really fit.

Azrael Ultima
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Re: Translation issue: Battle Riders / Ship types

Post by Azrael Ultima » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:51 pm

Well, my suggestion was to start all three riders on "Kampf-" to keep a certain similarity for them.

"Kampfboot"
"Kampfkreuzer"
"Kampfschiff"

This also opens up "Schlachtschiff" for DNs.
I concur with calling the category as a whole "Begleitschiffe" or, alternately, "Begleitboote".

I really don't like "Schlachtkreuzer", since that was originally the name for battleship sized ships with higher speed and less armor.
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Ixal
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Re: Translation issue: Battle Riders / Ship types

Post by Ixal » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:56 pm

"Kampfschiff" is quite a general term similar to warship or combat ship. It is in my opinion a bit strange to have such a general name for a ship class.

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